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Author Topic: The Christ Thread  (Read 17443 times)

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Offline Callesthe

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2013, 06:55:53 AM »

I understand that to you, this might not make sense. But you could say, I believe in a power greater and more plausible than any god of any religion. I believe in the magnanimous power of the universe itself. And such a power, needs not be worshiped by insignificant beings like ourselves. It strikes and gives as it pleases, with no bias and no foresight. It is a magnificent force that taunts us to fight back and conquer it.


^This.

I recently started a conversation somewhere else as well, about the same kind of topic. it was about 'what do you believe' , and here is my answer:

Spoiler
I believe that pondering about how the world works is not a question we should be asking at this point. Things just 'are' and trying to grasp why they 'are' is just the wrong question we're asking ourselves. There are just some things in this world we have to take for granted and not ask ourselves the reason until the reason shows it to ourselves. it will do so when it's time for us to be able to understand. And most of the time it's just a game of probabilities in our big universe, so expect every posibility to be present, it's not just luck or a 'will of something'. in my view, at this moment humanity isn't capable of understanding the way things are. and until we are so advanced that we'll be able to do so, it's just guesswork that humanity is doing. So many religions, and a lot are older than christianity or the jewish belief; ancient beliefs about nature spirits etc.

It's something i'd rather leave unanswered until time has come for the answer to show itself to us.


So in short, i believe it's not our time to try to understand the world as it is, if that time ever comes in the first place. You can believe but not understand, as it's an unknown that leaves many interpretations. Humans are not capable of understanding 'why It is', its above our brain capacity and is not designed to be worshipped.

Making your own interpretation might be reassuring for people, but i don't feel the need to do so myself and rather stay openminded and enjoy learning of others' interpretations.

The person replied that if we don't ask questions, we won't advance. My reply to that:

Spoiler
The big question we should be asking ourselves is; are we even asking a necessary question? for example, why do we live on earth, where all circumstances like temperature is perfect? Rather to think that it's God who made the earth perfect for us to live on, there's a much more plausible reason. We live on earth simply because circumstances are perfect. The circumstances allowed life to develop and reproduce. We don't live on mars, because it's too cold. And the reason why our planet is at exactly the right position from the sun, is because the universe is endless. If you want to have one success out of infinity possibilities, it's guaranteed to be there. The answer to the question "why is there life on earth?" is not that special; it is because it is, and nothing more than that.

Asking ourselves questions we can't certainly answer is not going to bring us anywhere either. The big question that answers all, the Question, is something we humans can't hope to comprehend. Maybe you understand it if i rephrase it like this: we humans, are not capable to understand "God". we aren't. God is just a single name for the answer, and it is already filled with interpretations from different people. God to you is not the same as God to the random man on the street. God is an embodiment of ideas that people try to justify, and yet we know nothing about Him. If you want to call the 'reason' or 'the magnanimous power of the universe' doesn't matter. we can not (hope to) understand it because our language and concepts are too simple to even be able to think of this problem.

So that's what I think of this. Very interesting topic!

Offline Echo_River

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2013, 07:37:12 PM »
So I know this can sometimes be an contoversial topic among believers.
Pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture?
Do you believe in any of them?

Just interested in your thoughts.
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Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2013, 08:03:39 PM »
^For my part, none of the above. From what I've read, Scripture seems to support a unification of heaven and earth, not an eschewing of earth and us existing as disembodied souls. Not to mention that what we typically consider our soul (thought, emotion, will, affections) are inseparable from our body. I think God certainly has a purpose for the body and it isn't something that will be thrown away in the end, but, rather, redeemed. Just my thoughts.

Offline Darksquirrel

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2013, 12:28:36 PM »
^ That's very interesting. Did you know the Hebrew word that was translated into 'soul' literally means 'breather'. So every time that word is used in Genesis (or any other part of The Old Testament), it's referring to our physical bodies, and not some spirtitual energy. The scriptures repeatedly put emphasis on the importance of the human body, and even(From what I've read and interpreted) promise a time when we'll live in a paradise forever with perfect human bodies. By perfect I don't mean defined abs and biceps, but vessels with immunity to all the curses of mankind, like disease or aging.
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Offline L.K. [Taikichi]

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2013, 01:41:26 AM »
I must apologize for any arguments I proposed in my recent posts. I was foolishly under the impression that one could prove the presence of god by science alone. The god of Abraham is more than the evidence of creation. He is an intelligent entity. If a person asks me to prove the existence of god it's like asking me for mathematical and scientific reasons to love your wife. If I were able to answer that question it would mean that I consider god a mindless force to be manipulated. The truth is, either you love your wife, or you don't. No amount of scientific evidence is going to change that on its own. God is a relationship, but it's something that one must experience alone. Why else would god have put the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden if not to give us a choice? if you believe that sort of thing.

As for homosexuality, no one is forced to have sex with the same gender. Whether or not one enjoys it is different. God doesn't care about your desires, he hates them yes, but he's only concerned with your choices. The key root in homosexuality is sex, but merely loving another man/woman can not be considered a sin. If you considered homosexuality centered around romance, my love for Jesus is gay and sinful and vice versa. Yet us christians are convinced that Jesus walked on this earth without committing a single sin; it would be counter intuitive to consider such a thing. Furthermore the fact that it is a desire is not enough to consider it correct. On top of that I must assume you've never dealt with children or been in the educational system to call homosexuality a genetic trait.

I can speak first hand what society and bullying can do to a person's personality without them even noticing it. If a person grew up like me, where gays were mocked, religiously gay is wrong, where the word gay is synonymous with asinine, marriage is always between 1 male and 1 female, women are sexy and beautiful , we men must be gentle men and always consider how our actions affect obtaining a female lover, etc..., one would find themself straight(unless an outside source plants the seed that gay is okay). But I'm not the only one society can affect, remember the Nazis in world war 2? Was there not and endless supply of propaganda hatred of the jewish in society in Germany at the time? And did it not influence a nation to exterminate any and every jew they could get their hands on?

God taught us not to underestimate the power of words when he spoke the world into existence, if you believe that sort of thing.

It's difficult to compare Protestant, Non Denominational Christianity to the popular religions that haven't survived the test of time. In protestant Christianity prayer isn't meant to be us begging a powerful entity for fortune and success, it's merely a conversation. In prayer there's no reason to use a word like 'please' because this means that you feel as though there's a chance god won't answer you. That means you lack faith. You should be able to order god to do what you want. I'm not trying to say that in prayer you should treat god like a slave, but remember that God already offered his services.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 01:43:14 AM by Lord Kesashi »

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 04:55:12 AM »

Spoiler
The big question we should be asking ourselves is; are we even asking a necessary question? for example, why do we live on earth, where all circumstances like temperature is perfect? Rather to think that it's God who made the earth perfect for us to live on, there's a much more plausible reason. We live on earth simply because circumstances are perfect. The circumstances allowed life to develop and reproduce. We don't live on mars, because it's too cold. And the reason why our planet is at exactly the right position from the sun, is because the universe is endless. If you want to have one success out of infinity possibilities, it's guaranteed to be there. The answer to the question "why is there life on earth?" is not that special; it is because it is, and nothing more than that.

Asking ourselves questions we can't certainly answer is not going to bring us anywhere either. The big question that answers all, the Question, is something we humans can't hope to comprehend. Maybe you understand it if i rephrase it like this: we humans, are not capable to understand "God". we aren't. God is just a single name for the answer, and it is already filled with interpretations from different people. God to you is not the same as God to the random man on the street. God is an embodiment of ideas that people try to justify, and yet we know nothing about Him. If you want to call the 'reason' or 'the magnanimous power of the universe' doesn't matter. we can not (hope to) understand it because our language and concepts are too simple to even be able to think of this problem.

So that's what I think of this. Very interesting topic!
responce
If you do more research on this topic, you would know Earth has been proven time and time again to pass by a hair on how it became inhabitable to life even to this day. Simply saying "earth isn't special" just because theres a possibility exist, doesn't make it that much less of a miracle (sort of speak)

oddly enough this is exactly what makes some people christian or believe in a higher power that is God. For one, every time they explain how both the universe, the continents, and everything else is made. the coincidences are far too great.

To a statistic point, yes it is incomprehensible, you can't crunch up the numbers of what god may actually be composed of, how big he is, where he is etc. not only because we don't know the answers to all things to even attempt such a thing, but also because it's like trying to comprehend what created us. its not possible and never meant to be possible (for us humans). but that doesn't make him an excuse to answer all life. And overall....i usually feel when people say "God is just something for people to believe in" it's more like saying "God is something that gives answers but is something that we can't prove, so therefore i don't believe"


I think some people like trying to solve mysteries on their own, some that will never be proven by their means. But does that mean that there is no creator if they can't prove one exists? If we can't comprehend god, then we shouldn't rule it out. its more of a pride issue when it comes to believing god, are we just a series of fortunate coincidence after coincidence? or something intentionally made by someone?

I say, be humble enough to be a skeptic, but don't let pride determine your beliefs (not directed to any user in this forum, its just i believe everyone should follow ideas in discretion. Who says the bible has to be contradicted by science?)

To me, whether you believe in the christian god or not, you cannot deny that there is a creator(s). if "atoms" are the building blocks to everything anywhere (except for dark energy and dark matter), then who was the one who created these "building blocks"?  everything is a system. Many people also question the idea of a "single" god being ridiculous. but i say "why?" why does there need to be multiple for the same creation? Scientists in the past were also christians, and were known by studying the force and nature of god. Suddenly it has changed to more radical views.

i'm simply saying, there's enough already right here to believe in a creator. people don't use it as an excuse for anything. Its just an answer you don't agree with.


^For my part, none of the above. From what I've read, Scripture seems to support a unification of heaven and earth, not an eschewing of earth and us existing as disembodied souls. Not to mention that what we typically consider our soul (thought, emotion, will, affections) are inseparable from our body. I think God certainly has a purpose for the body and it isn't something that will be thrown away in the end, but, rather, redeemed. Just my thoughts.
^ That's very interesting. Did you know the Hebrew word that was translated into 'soul' literally means 'breather'. So every time that word is used in Genesis (or any other part of The Old Testament), it's referring to our physical bodies, and not some spirtitual energy. The scriptures repeatedly put emphasis on the importance of the human body, and even(From what I've read and interpreted) promise a time when we'll live in a paradise forever with perfect human bodies. By perfect I don't mean defined abs and biceps, but vessels with immunity to all the curses of mankind, like disease or aging.

well it does state that air went up the nostrils of adam and gave him a living soul (suggesting that a soul can die). So....the soul and body might be the same thing.  If our bodies die, so do  our souls.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 04:58:28 AM by Lorenx1 »
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Offline archangel812

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2013, 02:20:09 PM »
I am glad that there are many capable people here in the forum, defending the Christian perspective.  I am doubly glad that we do not have to feel on the defensive here, and can just discuss and express without being judged.... too much.

Personally, I am a Christian, I realize denominations are pointless here, but I will explain that I believe the Bible and I will try to root all of my beliefs there to a passage. The bible is the root of all Christian belief and If you have questions, I suggest you start on page one.

Firstly, about homosexuality, do I believe it is wrong? Yes, but it is no different than being obese, or looking at your neighbour's wife the wrong way. It is something that is meant to be struggled with. We are all sinful whether our sin is internal (pride, vanity, lust) or external (Laziness being, Overweight). Christianity says that we will all be judged based on our actions. Many people in the Christian faith struggle with this. Yes, it is by faith alone we are saved, but faith without works is fruitless. The beauty of Christianity is that we will not be judged for our sins. The bible tells us that,

                                   "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. John 3:16-21

To me this is the source of salvation for the world. We are meant to live lives that follow Jesus' teachings as best we can. Do we get it right? No, never... we are impossibly far from the example that God set.

Every thought or action we make, we always make mistakes. Even when we try to do good we always do it for the wrong reason. We do good for our own self righteousness and pride. It is inescapable.

Moving on, It feels to me that we are viewing Christianity wrong when we say it is a religion. Religion is man's attempt to get right with god, to appease him, or to placate him. Just think about all the other religions. Islam believes in a set of balancing scales. (imagining end of the world) "You are 51% good and 49% bad, Welcome to Heaven!" Does that sound like a just God? If God is perfect, how could he accept anything less? And if God is not perfect, how could we ever believe in him? (discussions on God's perfection, sovereignty, and morals have been developing and I will discuss them as this topic develops, but I will move on with my point)

Christian's across the world struggle with pride, we think we stand in the right, when in actuality we stand among everyone else.....equal but we have faith in a life after death, a, "new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. 2 Peter 3:13" for those who believe AAANNNDDD follow his teachings, because if you believe, your actions should reflect those beliefs.

I do not mean to come across as rude, or self righteous. I have tried to summarize some key beliefs of the Christian church. I apologize for all the bad experiences many of you have had with Christians, we are all sinners.


Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2013, 02:37:17 PM »
i'm merely defending that one view is equal to the other.you can't say the reasons why the other exists.

some believe that if they don't see it or can't be perceived, then it must not be (classic if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, did it make a  sound). my friend can't see a drawing of a cube. he sees all these shapes in 2D such as squares and trapazoids, but his mind can't perceive that it is a cube.

i believe the same exists here.
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Offline archangel812

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2013, 03:57:18 PM »
I am sorry Lorenx1, if you are saying that we cannot understand or hope to comprehend God, I would agree... to a point. Many Christians believe exactly that, except that to solve that problem he sent his son.
                Here is an analogy... A man walks out to his garage; when he makes his way in he sees a bird that is trapped, flying aimlessly from side to side of the garage. He tries everything to get the bird out but the bird cannot make its way out, confused as it is. He wishes that he was bird because then he could make the bird understand and help it find its way to safety.
            This is not a great analogy but it works. The point is that God sent his son down to earth, both fully God and fully man so that he could relate to us and show us the way.

               Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

                 I realize that a few people here use the bibles validity as an excuse to ignore it (no offence meant) I could explain a lot about this topic but I have not the time right now. I will say this though. Among all the great ancient Greek writers who we read about in philosophy and who are never doubted in the educated world; there are far better reasons to believe the validity of the bible. There are more reliable manuscripts from far closer in time to when they were written than any of the Greek writers. If you doubt me read this http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence  Mistakes happen in translation but all of the important parts are without a doubt true. Thousands of scholars spend their lives translating the bible, attempting to understand the context in which it was written, and creating a viable educated reading format for people to read and understand. Scholars across the world regard these scholars as the best at this kind of work called Hermeneutics. Of all things to doubt do not doubt the bible, the search for older and older texts is ongoing, and cross-referencing these texts and determining what was closest to the original texts is a reliable method.

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2013, 04:07:02 PM »
although we can't fully comprehend god, the point is that we shouldn't believe just because we can't understand it completely. or make it seem like a ridiculous notion.

Is it ridiculous to believe in something that someone personally can't perceive? no....i'm talking about those who dismiss christianity or any other religion simply by means of not understanding.

the bible makes references or suggests that the proof is in his creation himself. so it puts things completely in different perspective from those who want to comprehend/perceive god. it's like a robot trying to comprehend emotions, only the original creator knows.

just an analogy, not saying we can't comprehend emotions, just we can't fully understand something that wasn't meant to be understood.  but we shouldn't dismiss it as an impossibility or something man created for the sake of being lead.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 04:10:14 PM by Lorenx1 »
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Offline Darksquirrel

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2013, 04:45:56 PM »
If you were to write a letter to your children, in order to get them to know you and even give them a taste of true life, you would make it simple and easy to understand(Granted, not a common scenario, but an understandable concept). I firmly believe that is what God has done with the Bible. When you read it, the message is loud and clear(Though some parts require a lot of thought research). It is human involvement that complicated it's true message, and caused people to think of it as a lost cause.

I just want to say that I'm glad to see people interested in this topic.
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Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2013, 04:58:51 PM »
i see it that way too....one would ask "why god simply left it as the ten commandments along with additional principles and leave it as that?" because he know s imperfect humans are.

whether you believe in god or not, you can't deny theres no other book like it
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Offline archangel812

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2013, 07:40:21 PM »
Darksquirrel , you are a Jehovah's witness right? I would argue that Jehovah's witness' are not a Christian denomination in the same way Mormons are not a Christian denomination, but I would like to hear your defense and explanation of the Jehovah's witness faith. I am not trying to start an argument but rather to inform myself of your actual beliefs; as opposed to the old women who come to my door twisting bible verses. What is the deal with not having birthday's or celebrating Christmas?

I do not mean to sound rude, my experience with Jehovah's Witness' are very limited and they have always come off the wrong foot.

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2013, 08:03:21 PM »
Darksquirrel , you are a Jehovah's witness right? I would argue that Jehovah's witness' are not a Christian denomination in the same way Mormons are not a Christian denomination, but I would like to hear your defense and explanation of the Jehovah's witness faith. I am not trying to start an argument but rather to inform myself of your actual beliefs; as opposed to the old women who come to my door twisting bible verses. What is the deal with not having birthday's or celebrating Christmas?

I do not mean to sound rude, my experience with Jehovah's Witness' are very limited and they have always come off the wrong foot.

well for birthdays, the bible only has  negative encounters with birthdays, and its more like a grey area that they see is best to avoid. I personally never celebrate my birthday to a full party other than maybe the occasional gift from school, so to me it's like "meh...not the biggest lost". As for christmas, its pagan origin. the bible never records jesus's birthday, and unlike his the day of his death, the so called birthday is using modern calendar (january-december) not the original one (i believe is a hebrew calendar).

SO that's something i personally believe they're in the right, because it's using Jesus's name to celebrate pagan holidays without knowing it. Plus it pisses me off that they call it the merriest time of the year, when the suicide rate goes up around that time.

A bunch of evidence suggestion pagan origin from christmas....ever seen boondocks? they mention it.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 08:05:30 PM by Lorenx1 »
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Offline Echo_River

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Re: The Christ Thread
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2013, 08:13:30 PM »
I've heard that even the word Christmas turns on itself. Christ's birth is celebrated at Christmas right? Well, if you separate it into it's syllables, Christ and mas, the mas part can be made Mass, which is the focus on His death. So I dunno, it seems kind of contradictory.

But yes, Christmas is really an all out pagan thing. From Santa to the evergreen to the candles in the window.
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