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Author Topic: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)  (Read 186199 times)

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Offline Suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1575 on: March 27, 2021, 01:41:15 PM »
@Manimal trust you to notice the marketable robot design ;)
and thanks for the feedback.
Et Cetera is proving to be quite the hard story to write as it doesn't have much plot, being basically a school sitcom but with chaos as the main ingredient, much like Nichijou. It's a real mess of ideas and I dont know where to start. But I think I'm just going to go with absolute random ideas until I get a feel for the characters and the sort of flow that I want and so on.

All of the stories are just random plots I came up with mostly on the spot, just to give me some writing experience, so it's going to be a lot of trial and error to learn how to write, and in the different genres too.
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Offline KatDeMilo

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1576 on: March 28, 2021, 05:39:23 AM »
It brings me much comfort to know others do a lot of self reflecting on their entire artistic process :>
This is usually me at 3am on a work night xD

Again not much to add, just here for it! :)
Going well!
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Offline Suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1577 on: March 28, 2021, 03:33:39 PM »
@KatDeMilo thanks for the comment! it's nice to know someone's watching my struggles!!!



End of month post.

I've decided for my mid-month and end-month posts to make my post on the nearest Sunday. this is because my schedule is packed and I generally spend quite a while rambling in my posts so I can't afford the time in the week now that I'm working on my projects more seriously.

I won't talk too much this time as, well, not much as happened really, since moving to gaining writing skills, and more, I'm only halfway through revving up my projects and I dont know if what I'm even trying to do is achievable.

I've now been back at work for 3 weeks and I've got a new schedule in place.
I'm working with a daily schedule for projects, so on each day of the week I have specific things that I do. On my work days I do portrait practice since I have very little time, and on my other days I basically have 4x 6 hour slots, one for each of my manga projects.
Sunday is a catch-up day because I mostly likely will have had a bad day in the week and have things to catch up on at least one of my projects (this week was super bad and all of them needed catching up lol, and I couldn't quite make it :/)

I'm almost balancing the output that I want to have. Mostly it's just having a clear idea of what I'm aiming at, be it a script or a plot outline etc, and work efficiently and solidly on it during the time I have set aside for it.

So far I've written quite a bit but nothing yet to show for it because a lot is in planning documents and the like, jotting down a lot of ideas for events and plots in my story, but nothing properly written out in script yet. Well, one project is on track after the Sunday catch-up, so that's not so bad, for a level 0 writer :P

I've written about 45k words this month (30k in the last 2 weeks), mostly in planning documents to be honest. I think rather than time spent, words typed is a much more useful statistic for productivity in writing, although given I'm writing a story, it's easy enough to see how many chapters I've completed.

Most fortunately I am starting my Easter holiday now for 3 weeks and so I have 6 bonus days to manage my output and buffer any lost time. I'm hoping that this Monday I can catch up all the other projects and then I can use the other bonus days for art related stuff since I haven't drawn much at all.

So far in my manga story projects, character design has been the hardest. partly because that's both art and writing, and I've been skimping on both, having not much of a clue what I'm doing. But it seems that when I need the info for a character I make it up and add it to their bio there and then, so it's almost working out.

I have done so little drawing this month, about 1 hour a day average. Compared to my ideal 5 hours, that's tiny and normally I would be getting super depressed right now. But, as of March, I am primarily a writer, for the foreseeable future. I'm going to be massively levelling my writing ability, and hopefully a little bit of manga comic related art training too.

I considered making a new writing-only thread for my writing log but then I'd have to make 2 posts each time as I'll typically have art to share, so I figured just do one big post here for all my manga stuff.

Stay tuned, next update should be a big one hopefully.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 04:13:03 PM by Suuper-san »
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Offline Walt

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1578 on: April 19, 2021, 08:59:41 AM »
I would love to see some of your writing suuper. 45k words is quite a lot! I have been planing the story of my own manga as well. Plotting can be hard   :confused:

Offline Suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1579 on: April 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM »
@walt
yeah planning is definitely hard
You can read my currently "airing" mangas here.
I like how you put strategy into your fights, Walt, I'd love to be able to do the same in my writing.
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Offline Suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1580 on: July 20, 2021, 05:51:18 AM »
almost exactly 4 months since my last post, wow time flies ehehe

Had a mild depressive episode that maybe I couldn't draw anymore, because I've only been working at such low art quality for so long with my longer-than-expected manga project.

So drew this in like 10 minutes as a sort of warmup of sorts. Other than this I've done decidedly little art aside from my manga project, which has probably contributed to me feeling a bit low. Fortunately my project is soon over and I'll be back to the grind for the foreseeable future :P

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Offline Suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1581 on: August 08, 2021, 03:39:47 PM »
Well, it's been a while since I posted properly in here :P
I originally wanted to keep up my studies and WIPs with my manga project, but the workload ended up being just a bit too much in the end.
I have a sneaky suspicion that had I done the WIPs early in the week, I would have crammed to finish off the manga work, and it all would have worked out. Something to do with procrastinating and working hard at the last minute. So I'm hoping to increase my workload for my next project and still keep up the output. But we'll see.

I'm back full blast with regimes and WIPs, on a new strategy this time, which I'll talk about next week when I've had a better chance to test it fully out.

But otherwise here's some work I've finished off in the last week:

Cleaned WIPs:
Working on adding details and complexity at the moment, as well as a higher accuracy of proportions. Face and hands take a hit of a bit since that's what I'm weakest in, so the face and hand regimes will hopefully help to keep all my skills level. I've been jumping around with the line quality - I dont want them to bee too sketchy it makes it hard to ink, but equally if I'm too detailed I'm wasting time. Still not 100% settled on a line style or detail level yet, so we'll see how the next few sets come out.

Some good ones:


This is currently my most favourite illustration piece, although it's not yet finished. As long as I finish it properly it'll be fabulous I hope. This is pretty close to my ideal style with loads of details and props and cute stuff happening.


Linearts:
I've had a bumpy road with linearts the last year, probably because of not having enough detail in the undersketches to ink properly or confidently. But thanks to the tracing regime I've gained a bit of confidence and ability with my inking and so I've been steaming along with getting some 2+ year old WIPs out of the way.

Some alright ones:
 

Overall in the last year my WIPs have been shifting from illustration style pieces to manga panel shot style pieces. There is more of a focus on things going on, different expressions, and generally adding backgrounds and extra characters and so on. This is actually not a bad thing since they were never meant to be my main illustration output, and this way I can practice a higher range of drawings that will help with my manga later on. I'll be doing proper illustration style pieces in a separate serious masterpiece project, more on that later as well.

So much sooner than expected I've got a solid direction and I'm hacking away at trying to increase my focus to what I know I'm capable of, for high long term productivity.
I'll probably post once a week for a while and we'll see how distracting that is overall.

so hopefully see you all pretty soon :P
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 03:42:52 PM by Suuper-san »
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Offline Ryan

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1582 on: August 13, 2021, 03:58:06 PM »
Nice work this year, you've been working hard  ;D. Those WIPs have some potential there.

One thing I want to suggest is to consider not using uniform line thickness for your linearts. With the WIP of the girl with the cube floating in her hand, there's some appealing line variation in the face in the way the outline of the lower face and the eyes are thicker than the other lines around it. Overall your WIPs have a nice sense of texture to them. But I feel that your linearts are losing a lot of the life compared to them.

To vary your line thicknesses efficiently, you can use a simple or more complex logical hierarchy.

This is the more complex hierarchy, using three levels: the 1st being the thickest line, and the 3rd being the thinnest.
  • Lines that are tertiary to the object, i.e. wrinkles, seams, stitches, folds, would have level 3 thickness. Things that on their own aren't really considered objects. Something like a buckle, however, has more of a sense of being an object and could fall in either level 2 or 3 depending on the artist's taste.
  • Lines that outline an object's boundaries will be level 2 thickness.
  • And going further, applying level 1 thickness to lines that form the outer silhouette of character or stand-alone objects, thus separating foreground objects from the background.

This 3-level hierarchy will take more time and also isn't applicable for many styles, due to the heavier outlining of the silhouette.

A 2-level hierarchy would just use the level 3 and level 2 thickness ideas, though the levels are now level 2 and 1, respectively. I feel that the 2-level hierarchy could improve your lineart without needing a larger investment of time. You just ink all the level 1 lines first (outlines of objects), then reduce your brush size, and then ink the level 2 lines (tertiary lines).

That's the simplification. In some cases, when the overlap of two forms is important and has a lot of visual prominence, you will use level 1 thickness along a line. For example, where the suit fabric overlaps the other side down the front of the body, near the buttons.


Offline Suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1583 on: August 15, 2021, 03:00:32 PM »
@Ryan how you doing? long time no see :P

yup I've really been pushing myself to increase my output and improve my skills even more. I'm so close to a passable level of good skill now I just need a final push to round off the corners that I've missed so far.

thanks for the advice! You are 100% correct that I need some line variation, in fact I started trialling the different 2/3-stage thickness styles a while back here http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php/topic,4319.msg304145.html#msg304145

But I put that skill on hold; as with many of the skills I need to learn, I'm focusing on what I consider more important skills in my linearts at the moment. I find I improve the most when I completely ignore certain aspects of my skill to focus 100% on other ones. So in this case, I'm ignoring line thickness and prioritising line accuracy and efficiency. I figure it will be easier to learn how to draw different thickness lines, than to actually draw the lines in the right place to begin with. I'm still all over the place when it comes to 3d form and so on, so something as fine as line thickness is the least of my worries ahahaha.

Thanks for the breakdown and tips, I'll definitely take that on board when I finally tackle that part of my style!



Well I had hoped for a bit more of a dramatic reveal, but my schedule hasn't been as supremely amazing as I had wanted.
Basically I've been procrastinating far too much and only in the last week have I started to rev up my focus again. In fact I realised how far my focus has been lost the last few months, as I'm starting to be back in the zone more and it's a very nostalgic feeling. So the manga project did highlight a massive problem with focus I think, I'll tackle that another time.

My new-and-improved skill grinding regime has begun. I'm pulling out all the stops, again, for some hopefully massive experience gains.

Ideally this is a weekly output of things that I'm aiming for:
7x1 Warmup page
1x8 Traced Manga Pages
1x16 single panel copies
4 hours masterpiece work ~1 piece
1x12 Inked WIPs
3x12 Cleaned WIPs
2x30 Finished WIPs
1x30 figure finalised
2x50 figure cleanup
2x50 face regime
2x50 hand cleanup
1x12 large text concept sketches
2x100 figure pose concepts
2x100 hand pose concepts

Almost everything on the list is a regime in itself, except my WIP work. So this is a regime of regimes, hopefully.
I wrote this list first, and then did a rough calculation of the time required to actually do it all, and it works out at 60 hours a WEEK. So that's nearly double my comfortable maximum.

The target is several-fold:
1) Improve my focus and schedule to devote more time to art in the week. I know this is completely possible, I just have to actually get focused. I'm aiming to squeeze 100% of my allocated time into the art, and not waste a shred of time elsewhere.
2) Improve my discipline. Sort of same as above, but I'm trying to remove motivation from the equation. I want to wake up, feel awful, and STILL get on with my art projects. This is related to gaining a professional mindset, and will be necessary if I'm ever to become massively prolific.
3) Gain experience and skill from the included regimes. This sort of goes without saying, but the regimes all focus on different skills individually and so I'm hoping they will all work together to improve my quality, accuracy,efficiency and speed.
4) Observe any speed gain as the project goes on. This is more likely something I will check at the end, but I want to know if my speed increases for the regimes and WIPs and so on. Speed isn't the most important thing I know, but I'm sort of making a bet on how I can make the most of it.
5) Improve/Optimise my art style. I've generally been quite lax in developing my art style, but I think to gain the next level of skill I need to commit to a direction, even if I change my mind later. I'll be working on "masterpiece" illustrations where I try and produce art that I actually want to produce.
6) Work through my older WIPs to finally have a pipeline of WIPs that actually get finished quickly from when the first sketch is made. At the moment I suspect I have about a 5 year pipeline (could even be more tbh), I need to trim that down to 6 months ASAP. Obviously I can remove a ton of WIPs to achieve that, but I'm using the sub-par WIPs as a worst-case scenario training for my art skills. i.e. learning to improve a badly drawn sketch.

Something I noticed from my massive manga project was that because all the tasks were related, I couldn't pick and choose which tasks I did. They all had to be done in order, regardless of how I felt about that task. I thought this would be inefficient because of lack of motivation, but the opposite happened - I started to gain momentum because I always knew what task I was doing next. There was less lag switching to a new task, and I was able to force myself through the tougher tasks I didn't like to get to the ones I did like more.

So my list above is also the order I will be working through the tasks each week. I dont really have a minimum quality target for any of the tasks, the more important thing is that they all get done. Once I have a massive discipline I can focus on improving any lost quality.

As always I have doubts and concerns that the way I'm going is a strange one, but it's enjoyable and I'm definitely improving, so I think I'm on the right track.

This list of tasks will probably have to change after a few months to include more writing tasks, such as short stories, character design, and so on. I'm aiming at another manga quite soon, but not before I level up my writing and other lacking skills in the manga department.

So far in the 2 weeks since starting the project, I've only got down about half the items. That's about 75% of the work though, so I'm aiming for finishing the next set within 2 weeks and we'll trim the time down from there.



Here is some of the best work I've done in the last week:

"Cleaned WIPs"
I have adjusted the line style to be stronger and more definite, like an ink pen. The overall quality looks lower, but these sketches are meant to be inked afterwards, so it's all about expressing the idea as accurately but as quickly as possible. if I spend too long on this stage I end up with basically a lineart anyway, which isn't what I want.

Spoiler


















"Finished WIPs"
These are really finalised concepts, and so the focus of these is to express the concept as quickly as possible without losing the main proportions. If I'm lucky they come out quite good, and it makes my life easier on the next stage, but sometimes the concept is a new one, or a difficult pose, and it ends up not entirely great :P

Spoiler














That's all for now, I'll probably post again in 2 weeks once I've done another set.
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Offline KatDeMilo

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1584 on: August 15, 2021, 08:44:38 PM »
I've always wondered how you find the bulk practice method and how you feel it works for you? I've noticed a few people drawing hundreds of things on here, using that method.

Granted everyone had different learning methods in every aspect of life that work for them best, so curious.

I use the perfect practice method myself. That works best for me.
No bulk drawing ever. All practice must involve learning something new. Strictly avoid repetition where possible.
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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1585 on: August 16, 2021, 12:49:39 AM »
Well to put it simply, I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't feel it worked, and was the best for me.
But as you say, there are many acceptable methods of learning which vary greatly.

Partly the reason I work in bulk is simply because I have so many ideas and sketches I want to produce. So probably the main intention of the bulk method is to produce bulk work :P
I started working with bulk to get through more sketches quickly, and then took the idea and used it on my regimes later on.

When I say bulk that's partly a misnomer, I don't work on many individual sketches one at a time. It's closer to say I do batch work. I also work in iterations within each batch, so I'm usually focusing only on a minimal number of things each iteration.

Here is a breakdown of the most recent sketch page I did, with some explanations of the iterations and stages, as well as what I think are the benefits
Spoiler
My resolved sketch page that I last completed starts like this. Fairly old sketches, and pretty low proportions. Ideally they would be more up to date sketches, but it's all good practice.


My first step is to spice up the concepts and improve the ideas that I'm working with. Generally this improves the variety of poses and complexity of the background, as well as clothing.


I draw a rough thumbnail to make sure the figure is in the right place and approximately the right proportions


I then work at a closer zoom and improve the quality of the figure sketch, redrawing it and adjusting minor proportions.


I add additional guidelines, mostly vanishing point lines etc.


I then draw my entire sketch. sometimes I do the BG on a separate iteration, but lately I've been doing it all in one go. I'm deliberately keeping to a lower quality because very minor issues I can fix on the inking stage later on. There's no need to have a perfect sketch at this point.


Most of my different stages of work (Lineart/Resolved/Concepts) has some form of iteration that breaks the tasks into simpler steps of work that are all the same.

The advantages of bulk/batch work, including regimes (which are often just one single task, repeated), in my opinion:
-You are building up a stamina for producing a lot of work, especially if your target is to produce a manga or many sketches.
-Each stage gives an opportunity to fix previous mistakes. Therefore you don't need to be perfect until the very last stage.
-When working on the same thing repeatedly, you start to streamline your process and improve your workflow. This helps improve efficiency and reduce wasted time.
-Same as above, even without improving anything, by working through iterations of specific stages i.e. figure/guidelines, you are working more efficiently than if you were to do each sketch to completion on its own.
-Because you are working on many sketches, you will tend to try and make each one different to the next, so you are making sure you produce varied work instead of almost the same thing over and over.
-Same as above, you tend to come up with more unique ideas because you have exhausted your "default" ideas.
-You start to build a habit of certain work, partly muscle memory, partly good habits, and this carries over into your normal work as a new skill.
-At least as far as I am concerned, I know I will forget a lot of what I learn. I just have a bad memory. So bulk helps to enforce the things I'm learning over and over until it's part of me.
-Because of repeating things over and over, you get used to certain parts of a sketch, a particular pose, a hand position, expression etc, and it no longer is difficult to draw that thing.
-Another minor advantage is you don't waste time making new files and saving images all the time since you are working on a relatively large single file. I have a quick applet that splits each set back into separate images, and so no time is lost creating the grid of images or breaking it apart at the end.

To me repetition is useful in building up a strong memory of skills, just like when learning a language you would practice phrases until you have fully memorised them. It's not necessarily a massively efficient method, but I find a simple inefficient method is easier to do than a complex efficient one.

A lot of my methods and ideas are taken from my programming experience, as well as some basic psychology knowledge from Wikipedia articles.
Amongst other things, you might find these articles interesting. A lot of my workflow is built around these concepts of thought and productivity. And not just because I read these articles, but I directly noticed the issue and discovered it had a name by researching it. So I have confirmed all of these cognitive issues exist within my own mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overchoice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_multitasking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Centipede%27s_Dilemma

Also this one is super useful for why I'm always working sketchy and never at my full 100% ability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

Hope that sort of clears up my thoughts on the matter :P
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 02:00:48 AM by Suuper-san »
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Offline KatDeMilo

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1586 on: August 16, 2021, 02:14:54 AM »
Hmn interesting take on it.
I did go over the points and I think they are fair, if taken into account for a person whom that worked for.

Like we agreed on, different methods certainly work for different people.

I imagine there are even more stranger methods of practice out there haha!
You have filled my curiosity on that xD better to ask then wonder!
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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1587 on: August 16, 2021, 02:26:38 AM »
ehehe glad to give an answer. it keeps me on my toes that my methods are still working when I have to justify them.
Although only when I truly feel that I am a good artist will I be able to say that these methods actually worked. At the moment it's just a casual feeling that I'm going in the right direction.

I have always had a theory that if someone drew nothing but cats, and got really good, they would also be good at drawing people even if they had never practised it.

Now I don't care to test that theory but the opposite seems to be coming true, that I'm getting better at drawing animals with disproportionately low effort. I've even got better at drawing circles and straight lines.

So the reason I think that many different methods are all successful is because skills are interconnected and simply "doing art" is the only major requirement for improvement.

And we are all coming from different backgrounds and so our base skills are all different to begin with.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 02:57:10 AM by Suuper-san »
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Offline KatDeMilo

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1588 on: August 16, 2021, 05:03:07 AM »
Hmn cat thing, debatable but then again who knows xD haha

But,
I have seen very talented realist artists attempt manga and fail horribly.

I guess it also depends on the person aha xD

The only method I have no respect for is the "don't draw anything and complain you're not good" one. XD I seen many do that. Sigh.
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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1589 on: August 17, 2021, 05:18:00 AM »
ah that probably disproves my theory a bit then ahaha.

Quote
The only method I have no respect for is the "don't draw anything and complain you're not good" one
gah...so true
like a student not paying attention in class, getting a bad grade and blaming on the teacher not being able to teach properly.
art is so badly misunderstood in terms of "talent" and whether you have it or not, literally anyone can learn a skill like any other.
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