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PLZ READ THIS ALL ACTIVE MEMBERS
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CLICK Here.
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Post by: Suuper-san on February 23, 2021, 01:15:03 PM
I have finished my project, almost on time!!!!
For an in depth
Also apologies if all you writers already know this or it sounds nooby, but it's a first for me :P
The main drive for this project was wanting to gain some manga writing experience on my own personal projects rather than gaining it working on a collaboration project. A petty reason to be sure, but there you go.
So I was thinking that I wanted to make a one-shot manga, but I wasn't sure how to go about it, and so I just started drawing pages with random prompts as I have been doing previously, but this time I was using a new method (I mentioned this on the writers log thread) that could work with planning multiple pages. Up until this point I have only really planned the plot as I drew the page, and never thought about connecting pages, or working with a larger plot.
And I kid you not, the first page I did with this new method spawned this story. I wasn't putting any extra effort into it at all, it was literally a random page, that grew and grew massively. I'll talk about that method separately.
And so I suddenly in the space of 15 minutes, I had the basic beginning, middle and end of the story. Since my drive was high to create a manga, I immediately decided that this was the one, and started to work out how to make it into the final product. HERE (http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php/topic,20764.msg306867.html#msg306867) is the step-by-step tutorial of how I made this manga.
And so with a method in place and a plot to work with, I started cracking away at the workload in good old iterative bulk fashion. My timescale was to finish in 2-4 weeks, and to work at a page rate similar to professional weekly manga artists. With an obvious drop in quality of course :P
And despite a few not great days, I managed to finish in 23 days from the project start on Feb 1st, producing 72 panelled pages and 76 Pages overall. Basically all targets met, and a new high point in my art career, as this is the largest project that I have successfully undertaken.
Any and all feedback welcome.
Despite my overall joy on completion I am aware nonetheless that my writing is awful and so the story itself also suffers quite a bit. But it is done, and I move on.
Also needless to say I printed and stapled a real life copy
(https://i.imgur.com/PbsRmWU.jpg?1) (https://i.imgur.com/kb1fLTx.jpg?1)
Enjoy.
Reads right to left like all good manga.
You can read the PDF on google drive if that suits you better
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VEWcPXYA_D3l29HC3tdGTcBfGK46MQZF/view?usp=sharing
Spoiler
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Post by: legomaestro on February 24, 2021, 03:09:32 AM
Nothing else would satisfy hahahaha. Dude this is dialogue. This is character development and this was interesting as heck to read. (Also Sam is my spirit animal haha. Wish I could be as precise and friendly as him). Seeing your long report about your dissatisfaction with quality made me expect some wonky pages but tbh the only thought that came to me (at least 4 times) was: I wish he could submit this to an editor in Japan and recieve his honest opinion.
I know you're aiming for higher heights and hell yes do that, but dude as far as I'm concerned you're already in the realm of pros. This is a big thing, and not only big, it's entertaining. And somehow prompted by a random page? Howwwwww.
Moaaaaaaaaar plz.
Props suuper! Great work
Post by: Suuper-san on February 24, 2021, 03:20:24 AM
Well yes I always have the target of like pro pro mangaka, if you look at some of their dynamic panels and the way they draw emotion, not just some of the time, but ALL of the time, it makes me realise that I'm still a bit of a far way off. But not quite as far as I used to be, this time round I've gained quite a bit of confidence in my general ability, and I just need sepcific ability (proportions/dialigue etc) to level up now and I can pull off a lot better next time I hope.
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And somehow prompted by a random page? Howwwwww.Well basically I just kept extrapolating the scene both forwards (and backwards) until I had the person in the river and then it was quick fire answering questions like "who is he", "why is he in the river" etc. I already wanted to make more fantasy themed stories so I threw in some generic plot elements, actually the entire story is one mass of generic elements :P
I honestly dont know how it came together so well, so I am suspicious whether I could do it again as quickly or easily. I suspect a few other "unknown" factors played a part, such as the pressure to create the story in the first place.
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I wish he could submit this to an editor in Japan and recieve his honest opinion.awwww too kind :)
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This is character development and this was interesting as heck to readMany thanks again, it's a bit of a new realm for me, but I'm glad I managed to make something passable :P
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Moaaaaaaaaar plz.We'll see :D
I have a couple of serialisations planned as "throwaway" projects, to gain experience, but at the same time I dont want them to be rubbish because of the massive time I'll put into them, so I'm sort of conflicted about how to start them. I'm working on getting results very soon, so stay tuned :P
Post by: MK on March 30, 2021, 08:20:35 AM
Spoiler
Cover Page: I put this in black and white so you can see the values that you have. The biggest thing is the lighting really makes the cover flatter than normal in the composition. In this case you needed to make the shadows darker and choose a light source, different light sources will have different effects but it is very important. Also you should add a non white background for anything with color, even if it is gray then it will rest the eyes a bit. Make sure to check your values with a black and white filter:
I do this by making a new layer on top of all my layers, fill the whole layer to black, then i set the layer setting to hue, saturation or color. Once that is set up then i can toggle on and off the layer.
This is your cover in black and white
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826390095892185098/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
This is a cover with more contrast
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826397946513850368/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 1: Even with having the text read right to left, you can still direct the eyes down. Have it so it flows with the eyes instead of skipping. I also moved the top so it isn't right side heavy.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826399651292250112/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 2: Don't get overly specific on the exact location unless it is extremely important later like in a thriller/mystery. Always look to simplify the sentences, long sentences with extra fluff in the very beginning can be a turn off for readers. Remember it is not a novel but more about illustrations and more direct as you can describe things without words
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826401357610614794/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 3/4: It's mostly grammar and finding ways to shorten it into more casual conversation. Let me know if you want to see all the dialogue changes. I could probably change quite a bit throughout the story but it's pretty much the same idea as before.
Page 5: This page can be split in half. The top half would need maybe a few extra panels (can split the dialogue for this). The bottom half is your punch of excitement so it should be with a page turn and pop out at the reader.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826403668818395186/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 6: This page would have another split as you are forcing the previous panels into it. It's fine to have a page turn change of scene. If you really want then you could put a text box starting "House/home/etc"
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826404379581874267/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 7: This page is where you can add suspense and surprise. Again because of the page split it forces the previous panels into it. It actually works in your favor as you can stretch out the lightning. Something I noticed is that you save the black fill in between panels for flashbacks but that really limits the effects you can do. Generally artists use a dark gray instead and sometimes gray over the panels to signify a flashback.
Page 7.5: I would make the bottom half it's own page and add an extra transition panel of putting the jacket on just to fill extra space.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826405673255305226/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 7 Example:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826412246241378304/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 8: It's dark outside, make sure the zoomed out views are darker as there is more atmosphere between the camera and the foreground/background. Also to make the character pop out, it is ok to make it seem like there is a bit of brightness coming from them. This is also a trick if you have a crowd and want to focus on one character (another is to put more detail on the character in the crowd and less detail on the crowd characters as our eyes are more drawn to detail). Compare with the original version as I have darkened this one as an example.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826417870716141578/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
I do this by making a new layer on top of all my layers, fill the whole layer to black, then i set the layer setting to hue, saturation or color. Once that is set up then i can toggle on and off the layer.
This is your cover in black and white
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826390095892185098/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
This is a cover with more contrast
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826397946513850368/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 1: Even with having the text read right to left, you can still direct the eyes down. Have it so it flows with the eyes instead of skipping. I also moved the top so it isn't right side heavy.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826399651292250112/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 2: Don't get overly specific on the exact location unless it is extremely important later like in a thriller/mystery. Always look to simplify the sentences, long sentences with extra fluff in the very beginning can be a turn off for readers. Remember it is not a novel but more about illustrations and more direct as you can describe things without words
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826401357610614794/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 3/4: It's mostly grammar and finding ways to shorten it into more casual conversation. Let me know if you want to see all the dialogue changes. I could probably change quite a bit throughout the story but it's pretty much the same idea as before.
Page 5: This page can be split in half. The top half would need maybe a few extra panels (can split the dialogue for this). The bottom half is your punch of excitement so it should be with a page turn and pop out at the reader.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826403668818395186/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 6: This page would have another split as you are forcing the previous panels into it. It's fine to have a page turn change of scene. If you really want then you could put a text box starting "House/home/etc"
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826404379581874267/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 7: This page is where you can add suspense and surprise. Again because of the page split it forces the previous panels into it. It actually works in your favor as you can stretch out the lightning. Something I noticed is that you save the black fill in between panels for flashbacks but that really limits the effects you can do. Generally artists use a dark gray instead and sometimes gray over the panels to signify a flashback.
Page 7.5: I would make the bottom half it's own page and add an extra transition panel of putting the jacket on just to fill extra space.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826405673255305226/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 7 Example:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826412246241378304/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Page 8: It's dark outside, make sure the zoomed out views are darker as there is more atmosphere between the camera and the foreground/background. Also to make the character pop out, it is ok to make it seem like there is a bit of brightness coming from them. This is also a trick if you have a crowd and want to focus on one character (another is to put more detail on the character in the crowd and less detail on the crowd characters as our eyes are more drawn to detail). Compare with the original version as I have darkened this one as an example.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826417870716141578/Untitled_Artwork.jpg)
Another thing i noticed is that you never go to the edge of the page and that you have no panel-less characters.
Example of a panel-less character:
Spoiler
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826390004573536296/826434971526365194/6p1.jpg)As you can tell, this character does not have a panel but you can choose whether or not to put hit head above or below a panel. Generally you don't want to clip the heads of panel-less characters as it usually comes off as lazy or confusing to the reader. These can be placed anywhere on the page (if you have it in the middle or top of a page then usually the panel below can crop out the bottom portion)
Cover page (front) Blank (back) Chapter page (front), Page flip, 1 (back), 2 (front), page flip. That will flip the page on evens.
Alternate:
Cover page (front) Blank (back), Blank (front), Chapter page (back), Page flip, 1 (front), page flip, 2 (back). That will flip the page on odds.
Adding a blank page is a common trick when dealing with different series or combining multiple chapters in book where the author wants flips on odds or evens in different chapters.
Let me know if you want me to do the rest of the story, i'm going to go to sleep in a bit but i wanted to post some stuff since I came back from my trip.
Post by: Suuper-san on March 30, 2021, 08:58:42 AM
thanks so much for the detailed feedback!
It's really given me a lot to go on.
If you would be willing, I would very much appreciate feedback on each page as you have done so far, but given the size, as much as you want to do I'll be happy with!
Script feedback I would be very interested in as that's a part of writing that I have minimal experience in, so I would love to know how I could have changed the speech to make it better.
I definitely have a tendency to compress the pages with lots of panels, I'm not sure why that is but I'll try and use less panels per page and draw the readers focus to the things that are more important. I dont think it's something I'll be able to learn straight away but I'll give it a shot.
Regarding off the edge panels and panel-less characters, that was a deliberate style choice for this project, as I had some design limitations and this was one of the ways I could speed things up (it was really a quick project). Moving forward I will definitely go to the edge for some things, although I'm not sure when it would look good or not yet.
For the moment I'm not worrying about evens and odds pages as I dont intend to do double spreads or "official" book binding at the moment (just to save the number of things I'm focusing on at one time), but eventually I'll also be considering that in my designs as well.
Post by: Coryn on March 30, 2021, 02:09:32 PM
Post by: Suuper-san on March 30, 2021, 03:15:10 PM
a review on the writing would be fantastic, as that's what I struggle with the most :P
Post by: Nabe Man on November 04, 2023, 05:07:04 PM
While keeping in mind from then till now you've grown in the space as a creator.
If i am to add to the critique of the story it would be the pacing of how it progressed. People above commented on paneling and dialogue which i could agree with. Not so much the paneling because im newbie noob in that.
The progress of the story was slow and wasnt as dynamic as how id like it. Also there weren't much instances to pull the reader and keep the engagement. A lot of the story happened in a house and though good stories can be done in a house/ static settings there was a lot of for a lack of a better phrase "info dumping". I see so much potential in this though especially if ideas were expanded upon to have readers slowly but effectively fall in love with your story.
What i did enjoy was the dynamic between the characters. They meshed well and the scenes where you showed their personalities really came through. It was enjoyable to see.
Even back then you had the skill to effectively communicate to the reader also what you had in mind and story and that is also a needed skill.
Post by: Suuper-san on November 05, 2023, 05:33:50 AM
I agree with the pacing critique, I got annoyed with drawing the house background so much I started skimping on the quality half way through as well. I learned that sometimes you don't need to show everything happening chronologically when you can imply it happened with a single panel, or explain it via exposition etc.
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"info dumping"Yes I did do this quite a lot ahahaha because I just had the single chapter I tried to cram everything in XD
The entire thing was written more for practice rather than trying to produce a polished work, otherwise I would have rewritten it so many times I'm sure XD
The chi-chat scenes were mostly me just actually practising writing dialogue, and following the story as it naturally progressed in my mind. Unfortunately a "natural" story progression isn't necessarily interesting, is what I learned as well. I do have a slow story telling style as I like to show every little detail, which is not really suited to action genre but more slice of life, I realized.
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What i did enjoy was the dynamic between the characters.thanks, I tried really hard to make sure the characters had distinct personalities and this helped with how they interacted to make it realistic I think.
Fortunately if you'd like to see a second attempt at this story (not necessarily better!), I rewrote it from scratch and carried the story further on in my serial manga, Eclipse (http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php/topic,20801.0.html)
Post by: Nabe Man on November 05, 2023, 07:24:20 AM
I could tell you rely heavily on conversation to get the scenes rolling from one point to the next which makes the dialogue feel unnatural at times.
Some ideas also come across as too generic.
There is the eagerness to complete works which is good but its now just polishing it up for presentation and consumption.
Post by: Suuper-san on November 05, 2023, 09:03:21 AM
Also I don't really have an issue with "generic" works as long as I enjoy them, so that's a personal style choice as well.
Yes the conversation fuelling the plot is something I noticed myself, it was a side effect of the method I used to write the stories and I didn't have any methods to fix that, again it was just a rough story so I didn't spend much time on polishing things up, otherwise I probably would never have finished it at all.
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un-fleshed out scenes and development.
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the dialogue feel unnatural at times.I'm curious if you have any specific examples to point this out? It would be useful to know what went badly as I can't tell it myself. (also if possible please comment on the manga thread, not this one, thanks!)
