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Author Topic: The Dream Library Discussion Thread  (Read 4212 times)

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Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2013, 01:31:27 AM »
"Enact" is the word that the character would use. You haven't met him quite yet.
Both Sarah, and boy use it. but the problem is still that there are better words out there to portray what is needed in a more simplified, and practical way. i feel like you're trying to make dialogue look theatrical.

but here's a google definition of "enact" 1.make (a bill or other proposal) law. 2.act out (a role or play) on stage.

Unless you want it to intentionally be misused (such as a character informing him that using that word is inaccurate)There is clear signs of it. But the fact is, even if you choose another word, the sentence structure is still choppy.


Quote
Reasons will be given as to why Auberon has the confidence to criticize his superior officer (he is closer to Sarah than most of the other Sergeants, as you've noticed).
You're missing the point. The problem wasn't that he had reasons to why he had the "confidence" to criticize her. the problem was that in the given situation, its hard to see how he handled it.


Quote
As far as the briefing thing, she tells them so that they wouldn't suspect her as the culprit behind the crimes. Not to mention, this list is a special situation that would change the way the station operates. Her sergeants would have a right to know.
You see, this is the key problem, you want us to know this, but you don't provide the needed context for us to feel comfortable on figuring it out on our own. and part of the problem is we're getting almost everything at face-value. we don't get to see the character's thought process when it matters most.

Quote
Too, sergeants are usually over watch shifts, not always entire stations. In cities, there are usually multiple sergeants under one leader. It isn't just the "second-in-command." It's more like a pyramid scheme. Anyways, police ranks and their meaning change (very) drastically from place to place. The most important thing is for the terminology to be consistent. I use "sergeant" to refer to one of the six officers under the captain. That never changes. "The man who yelled at the other guy" is a character whose motives will be pretty clearly developed. I have thought about these things.
Enough with the sergeant. why don't you give them names if their so distinct? unless you dont want to for the sake of this odd story method?

The problem with the character yelling at the other guy isn't his motives at all. Afterall the story just started and he was only a nameless voice. I know enough to expect something in the future and what can be better portrayed now. its his character in general, and how it contradicts the situation he placed the other character. yelling and name-calling such as that in an impatient manner already shows familiarity with the other character, and seemed more personal, yet he made it clear that he

Quote
Of course the girl knows the man who visited her. That's what you're supposed to infer. Of course, the man was forced to kill her— by the guy who told him he could kill him at any moment.
i know, but the problem is bigger than you think. The fact is every pattern is just being tossed at us in your story. or rather it has no pattern or a way of gradually revealing information. The problem is all these aspects are just being thrown, rather than seeing a pattern.

I dont think you fully grasp the type of story you have. and only highlighting what you want most out of it.

Quote
To be honest, I feel like you are indeed missing things. I agree with certain parts of your criticisms, particularly relating to the format, for which I am trying to concoct solutions. But some of your other criticisms really don't seem to make any sense whatsoever.
i don't think you understand why i even highlighted certain aspects in your story.

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Also, as far as starting with a "cult" story, I'm starting with what I think is good story telling. I have little to no interest in Bleach, Naruto, Dragon Ball, One Piece, Fairy Tale, or most mainstream manga. They constitute a lot of what I'm trying to avoid. Don't get me wrong, there are ones that I like a lot, like Death Note or Fullmetal Alchemist, but, for the most part, it's not what I want to write. This is a very difficult idea to write, and most of my ideas since have been simpler, but mainstream is not something that I want to aim for. "Cult" is not even something I'm aiming for consciously anyways. I pay little attention to what genre it falls under. I liked the idea, so I decided to write it.
You're only grasping a very specific demographic. Don't confuse most popular mainstream manga, with manga in general. 

Aiming for mainstream is something that's difficult to do, whether you intend to or not and thats probably because you grab certain aspects of fundemental writing. trying to do something different without getting a grasp of mainstream will lead you to not even know what the fundamentals of what makes a good story. I'm sick of people saying "i dont want to do mainstream" but do you know what makes mainstream?

its an excuse to use what is accepted, and logical, and attempting to vamp it into something else.

Quote
As far as the revamping thing: The reason why I'm not revamping now is not because I don't think it needs work (although you've not convinced me of the need for a total revamp), but because I've never finished a series. To be honest, rewriting it before even finishing it chronologically was a mistake, but I can't stop now. The critiques, I use like the art section uses theirs. I make peace for now with what I've written and I apply what I've learned from what people have said to my future works. I can't improve if I'm just constantly revamping my story to fix something I'm not even convinced of. I think I said before on Lunacy that I wasn't critiquing so that you'd change your story, I was critiquing so that you'd improve your skills and change your writing altogether. The same holds true for Dream Library. I don't want you to critique just so I'll change what's already there. I want you to tell me how I can improve as a writer. Also, the farther I am in the story, the more mistakes I'll be able to see in the earlier chapters. I am willing to see those problems and give your criticisms a fair trial, but I just don't see it. If they are actual problems with the story, I will see it eventually if I keep writing and distance myself from what I've already written.

i think the difference between Lunacy and Dream Library is that mines set up to be a manga (mainstream or not) and your's doesn't know what would be better suited as. afterall, you wrote a story in novel format, and now you changed it to "script". the flow of story is much different. we don't get swayed by constant description in form of narration, we get swayed by the description used to visualize the story.

And i think script shows bigger flaws in your story. I do think you need to revamp it. not in a way that it changes the story, but that it provides more.

for example: how long had these murders been going? some backstory on the case would be good, to show more detective work on the reader. but so far everything in your story is open water. its hard to care for the aspects you revealed because you didn't provide the needed context.

As naribon said, our minds work differently. which is why i changed my story when needed to. and don't say no one ever asked me to. it may not be to the scale i had in mind with yours but it was enough for me to compromise.
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline legomaestro

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2013, 03:25:44 AM »
As Stephen King advises in On Writing: Write with the door closed first. Finish your first draft and ignore all horribles and preferably be done in 6 weeks with that first draft. When your done lock it away somewhere for at least a week and THEN you can start going over it yourself and keep it open for major edits. For forum based writing the rules are different, but you should always have the idea to finish stuff first and then fix it later.

Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2013, 01:51:17 PM »
"Enact" is the word that the character would use. You haven't met him quite yet.
Both Sarah, and boy use it. but the problem is still that there are better words out there to portray what is needed in a more simplified, and practical way. i feel like you're trying to make dialogue look theatrical.

but here's a google definition of "enact" 1.make (a bill or other proposal) law. 2.act out (a role or play) on stage.

Unless you want it to intentionally be misused (such as a character informing him that using that word is inaccurate)There is clear signs of it. But the fact is, even if you choose another word, the sentence structure is still choppy.
I was using enact as a synonym for "effect," which I didn't use because it could be confused for "affect." It doesn't make much sense to use "obtain" when speaking of justice. Fulfill might be better. I see your point in this regard and I can and will make a change without it stopping me.

Quote
Quote
Reasons will be given as to why Auberon has the confidence to criticize his superior officer (he is closer to Sarah than most of the other Sergeants, as you've noticed).
You're missing the point. The problem wasn't that he had reasons to why he had the "confidence" to criticize her. the problem was that in the given situation, its hard to see how he handled it.

Sorry, not grasping what you mean here. Are you suggesting that you don't know exactly how he feels about the situation, or that you see how he feels about the situation and don't know why he feels that way?

Quote
Quote
As far as the briefing thing, she tells them so that they wouldn't suspect her as the culprit behind the crimes. Not to mention, this list is a special situation that would change the way the station operates. Her sergeants would have a right to know.
You see, this is the key problem, you want us to know this, but you don't provide the needed context for us to feel comfortable on figuring it out on our own. and part of the problem is we're getting almost everything at face-value. we don't get to see the character's thought process when it matters most.

I understand and agree now with this point.

Quote
Quote
Too, sergeants are usually over watch shifts, not always entire stations. In cities, there are usually multiple sergeants under one leader. It isn't just the "second-in-command." It's more like a pyramid scheme. Anyways, police ranks and their meaning change (very) drastically from place to place. The most important thing is for the terminology to be consistent. I use "sergeant" to refer to one of the six officers under the captain. That never changes. "The man who yelled at the other guy" is a character whose motives will be pretty clearly developed. I have thought about these things.
Enough with the sergeant. why don't you give them names if their so distinct? unless you dont want to for the sake of this odd story method?
Again, I don't really get what you're saying here. 1: I don't know where you get the idea that they're "distinct." As in, they each hold their own unique office? No. They all hold the title of sergeant, and take orders from the captain. Even if there was one sergeant in a police station, who would take his place in his absence? Sergeants lead squadrons, and when multiple crimes are happening at a time in one district, there would need to be multiple sergeants to take care of the problem. 2: I have names for all of them, but haven't found a good opportunity to introduce them formally. Not yet anyways. In script format, it's very hard to read a scene with nameless characters. I get that. In graphic format, however, this isn't a problem. The scene wouldn't be hard at all to understand. You would understand that they are all sergeants, and that they aren't the same person, based on seeing that there are six people there (which I described) who all look different.


Quote
The problem with the character yelling at the other guy isn't his motives at all. Afterall the story just started and he was only a nameless voice. I know enough to expect something in the future and what can be better portrayed now. its his character in general, and how it contradicts the situation he placed the other character. yelling and name-calling such as that in an impatient manner already shows familiarity with the other character, and seemed more personal, yet he made it clear that he
His motives have everything to do with why he would be so impatient. Or rather, why he would use other people to accomplish what he wants, being such an impatient person.

Quote
Quote
Of course the girl knows the man who visited her. That's what you're supposed to infer. Of course, the man was forced to kill her— by the guy who told him he could kill him at any moment.
i know, but the problem is bigger than you think. The fact is every pattern is just being tossed at us in your story. or rather it has no pattern or a way of gradually revealing information. The problem is all these aspects are just being thrown, rather than seeing a pattern.

I dont think you fully grasp the type of story you have. and only highlighting what you want most out of it.

Again, not understanding what you're getting at with either point.
Quote
Quote
To be honest, I feel like you are indeed missing things. I agree with certain parts of your criticisms, particularly relating to the format, for which I am trying to concoct solutions. But some of your other criticisms really don't seem to make any sense whatsoever.
i don't think you understand why i even highlighted certain aspects in your story.
You're right. I don't. Which is why I get the impression that there is some misunderstanding on your end as well.

Quote
Quote
Also, as far as starting with a "cult" story, I'm starting with what I think is good story telling. I have little to no interest in Bleach, Naruto, Dragon Ball, One Piece, Fairy Tale, or most mainstream manga. They constitute a lot of what I'm trying to avoid. Don't get me wrong, there are ones that I like a lot, like Death Note or Fullmetal Alchemist, but, for the most part, it's not what I want to write. This is a very difficult idea to write, and most of my ideas since have been simpler, but mainstream is not something that I want to aim for. "Cult" is not even something I'm aiming for consciously anyways. I pay little attention to what genre it falls under. I liked the idea, so I decided to write it.
You're only grasping a very specific demographic. Don't confuse most popular mainstream manga, with manga in general. 

Aiming for mainstream is something that's difficult to do, whether you intend to or not and thats probably because you grab certain aspects of fundemental writing. trying to do something different without getting a grasp of mainstream will lead you to not even know what the fundamentals of what makes a good story. I'm sick of people saying "i dont want to do mainstream" but do you know what makes mainstream?

its an excuse to use what is accepted, and logical, and attempting to vamp it into something else.
What makes a good story is certainly not present in most mainstream manga. Accepted and logical are not synonymous.

As far as understanding what actually teaches the fundamentals of any artform, I've always found that the mainstream only provides a limited perspective. And anyways, I don't know how a mainstream idea would teach me any more than Dream Library is now. The fact that Dream Library is such a difficult idea to write teaches me more than any "mainstream" story I've written (and I have written them. It isn't like this is my first story ever. I've been writing since third grade).

Quote
Quote
As far as the revamping thing: The reason why I'm not revamping now is not because I don't think it needs work (although you've not convinced me of the need for a total revamp), but because I've never finished a series. To be honest, rewriting it before even finishing it chronologically was a mistake, but I can't stop now. The critiques, I use like the art section uses theirs. I make peace for now with what I've written and I apply what I've learned from what people have said to my future works. I can't improve if I'm just constantly revamping my story to fix something I'm not even convinced of. I think I said before on Lunacy that I wasn't critiquing so that you'd change your story, I was critiquing so that you'd improve your skills and change your writing altogether. The same holds true for Dream Library. I don't want you to critique just so I'll change what's already there. I want you to tell me how I can improve as a writer. Also, the farther I am in the story, the more mistakes I'll be able to see in the earlier chapters. I am willing to see those problems and give your criticisms a fair trial, but I just don't see it. If they are actual problems with the story, I will see it eventually if I keep writing and distance myself from what I've already written.

i think the difference between Lunacy and Dream Library is that mines set up to be a manga (mainstream or not) and your's doesn't know what would be better suited as. afterall, you wrote a story in novel format, and now you changed it to "script". the flow of story is much different. we don't get swayed by constant description in form of narration, we get swayed by the description used to visualize the story.

The description isn't narration. I'm not grasping your drift here.

Quote
And i think script shows bigger flaws in your story. I do think you need to revamp it. not in a way that it changes the story, but that it provides more.
Again, distance will help me realize the flaws. I'm going to go ahead with my plan to write a bit more before going back and changing things (minus a couple really simple things). I will try to make changes to the way I write these and hopefully the newer chapters will inform the previous ones.

for example: how long had these murders been going? some backstory on the case would be good, to show more detective work on the reader. but so far everything in your story is open water. its hard to care for the aspects you revealed because you didn't provide the needed context.

Quote
As naribon said, our minds work differently. which is why i changed my story when needed to. and don't say no one ever asked me to. it may not be to the scale i had in mind with yours but it was enough for me to compromise.
I never said no one ever asked you to change the story. I said that I, not other people, had emphasized that it was more important that you improve the way you write than what you write.

All in all, I'm not completely convinced of everything you're saying here. I will read Dream Library again and again to see if I see the same things you do, but, ultimately, I need to distance myself and come back. I won't rush to post the next few chapters and I'll allow them more time to stew. Perhaps it will help. But again, I need to distance myself from the earlier chapters before changing them dramatically.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 02:06:48 PM by Paipis Panella »

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2013, 11:19:27 PM »
I was using enact as a synonym for "effect," which I didn't use because it could be confused for "affect." It doesn't make much sense to use "obtain" when speaking of justice. Fulfill might be better. I see your point in this regard and I can and will make a change without it stopping me.

I find your decisions to be flimsy. you chose an abstract word because the more simpler word might get confused for the other? Its best to find the easiest to understand sentence, rather than finding a specific word.

Quote
Sorry, not grasping what you mean here. Are you suggesting that you don't know exactly how he feels about the situation, or that you see how he feels about the situation and don't know why he feels that way?
i'm saying i dont understand why he feels the way he is.

the reasoning used in this story.

Quote
I understand and agree now with this point.
but will you address it?
Quote
Again, I don't really get what you're saying here. 1: I don't know where you get the idea that they're "distinct." As in, they each hold their own unique office? No. They all hold the title of sergeant, and take orders from the captain. Even if there was one sergeant in a police station, who would take his place in his absence? Sergeants lead squadrons, and when multiple crimes are happening at a time in one district, there would need to be multiple sergeants to take care of the problem. 2: I have names for all of them, but haven't found a good opportunity to introduce them formally. Not yet anyways. In script format, it's very hard to read a scene with nameless characters. I get that. In graphic format, however, this isn't a problem. The scene wouldn't be hard at all to understand. You would understand that they are all sergeants, and that they aren't the same person, based on seeing that there are six people there (which I described) who all look different.
if she's rounding off insignificant sergeants, whats the point of classifying them if they can be replaced?

Sergeants, are squad leaders, its like saying anyone can be captain if the captain is away doing other duties.

Quote
His motives have everything to do with why he would be so impatient. Or rather, why he would use other people to accomplish what he wants, being such an impatient person.
his motives can retain, but its not the problem. his character still doesn't fit...you can say that about any other character. but also note that he was speaking incredibly familiar tone. his impatience seemed personal. and the fact that he was threatening him of being expendable seemed like he didn't need to sound impatient.

it shows lack of relevance in the mystery/villain-foodchain. 

Quote
Again, not understanding what you're getting at with either point.

You're right. I don't. Which is why I get the impression that there is some misunderstanding on your end as well.


it seems off the lack of information we get by that one seen. you really don't take advantage of the information you reveal. and part of it is the decisions you use in your story. but for the most part, it seems like no detective skills are being made.


THe relevance of the scene could impact more if you provided a form of pattern within deaths.

Quote
What makes a good story is certainly not present in most mainstream manga. Accepted and logical are not synonymous.
Not exactly. A good "manga" can be presented in mainstream manga, and it has. But if you want to write any general good story, you have to understand that not all stories translate well in different mediums, and will need to be adjusted. You're going for a theme that may not translate well with readers, and will probably base it completely on artwork to hold for at least the beginning.

Quote
As far as understanding what actually teaches the fundamentals of any artform, I've always found that the mainstream only provides a limited perspective. And anyways, I don't know how a mainstream idea would teach me any more than Dream Library is now. The fact that Dream Library is such a difficult idea to write teaches me more than any "mainstream" story I've written (and I have written them. It isn't like this is my first story ever. I've been writing since third grade).

Not true. That's the problem with anyone who only had limited acess to certain mainstream manga. In order to understand what makes cult ideas great, (or golden) they first need to understand what makes.

Creating a successful mainstream series is different from making a mainstream manga in general. And if you believe mainstram manga has few perspectives, thats only because you limited yourself to what you define as "mainstream".

Quote
Again, distance will help me realize the flaws. I'm going to go ahead with my plan to write a bit more before going back and changing things (minus a couple really simple things). I will try to make changes to the way I write these and hopefully the newer chapters will inform the previous ones.
this is why it has to be done early, you dont use the criticism of previous chapters to work on the newer ones. you use that criticism on those chapters.

 

Quote
I never said no one ever asked you to change the story. I said that I, not other people, had emphasized that it was more important that you improve the way you write than what you write.
you need to improve on both.

Quote
All in all, I'm not completely convinced of everything you're saying here. I will read Dream Library again and again to see if I see the same things you do, but, ultimately, I need to distance myself and come back. I won't rush to post the next few chapters and I'll allow them more time to stew. Perhaps it will help. But again, I need to distance myself from the earlier chapters before changing them dramatically.
i don't think you really gave what i told you an open mind. or rather, you not "trying" to put an open mind.

how distant do you need to be? look at what you generally revealed. the flaws are more within the concept itself. i dont thinky ou're trying to write a difficult story, i think you're trying to write in a fashion that doesn't suit manga.
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2013, 11:04:54 AM »
I was using enact as a synonym for "effect," which I didn't use because it could be confused for "affect." It doesn't make much sense to use "obtain" when speaking of justice. Fulfill might be better. I see your point in this regard and I can and will make a change without it stopping me.

I find your decisions to be flimsy. you chose an abstract word because the more simpler word might get confused for the other? Its best to find the easiest to understand sentence, rather than finding a specific word.
"effect" would not be easiest to understand though. I'll find a word that fits.

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Quote
Sorry, not grasping what you mean here. Are you suggesting that you don't know exactly how he feels about the situation, or that you see how he feels about the situation and don't know why he feels that way?
i'm saying i dont understand why he feels the way he is.

the reasoning used in this story.


He will be expounded upon. What characters do doesn't have to be explained within the chapter especially in graphic novel format, where chapters are all together.

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Quote
I understand and agree now with this point.
but will you address it?
Certainly. The "distance" I'm speaking of is not the whole series, but two to three chapters.

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Quote
Again, I don't really get what you're saying here. 1: I don't know where you get the idea that they're "distinct." As in, they each hold their own unique office? No. They all hold the title of sergeant, and take orders from the captain. Even if there was one sergeant in a police station, who would take his place in his absence? Sergeants lead squadrons, and when multiple crimes are happening at a time in one district, there would need to be multiple sergeants to take care of the problem. 2: I have names for all of them, but haven't found a good opportunity to introduce them formally. Not yet anyways. In script format, it's very hard to read a scene with nameless characters. I get that. In graphic format, however, this isn't a problem. The scene wouldn't be hard at all to understand. You would understand that they are all sergeants, and that they aren't the same person, based on seeing that there are six people there (which I described) who all look different.
if she's rounding off insignificant sergeants, whats the point of classifying them if they can be replaced?

Sergeants, are squad leaders, its like saying anyone can be captain if the captain is away doing other duties.
Not anyone can be sergeant. I never said that. 1: There are multiple sergeants to lead multiple operations, which, in a big city, is a logical thing to do. 2: In a pyramid scheme, many people are looking to be promoted. There are other people qualified to make sergeant, but they're just waiting for the opportunity. I don't see your point here and I'm going to stop probing.

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Quote
His motives have everything to do with why he would be so impatient. Or rather, why he would use other people to accomplish what he wants, being such an impatient person.
his motives can retain, but its not the problem. his character still doesn't fit...you can say that about any other character. but also note that he was speaking incredibly familiar tone. his impatience seemed personal. and the fact that he was threatening him of being expendable seemed like he didn't need to sound impatient.

it shows lack of relevance in the mystery/villain-foodchain.
Still, don't see your point.

Quote
Quote
Again, not understanding what you're getting at with either point.

You're right. I don't. Which is why I get the impression that there is some misunderstanding on your end as well.


it seems off the lack of information we get by that one seen. you really don't take advantage of the information you reveal. and part of it is the decisions you use in your story. but for the most part, it seems like no detective skills are being made.
You're assuming this is a detective story. There are detectives in it, but you haven't even been introduced the the whole main idea yet. This is just the exposition. The main plot has only barely been touched on.

Quote
THe relevance of the scene could impact more if you provided a form of pattern within deaths.
There certainly will be a pattern. Three patterns to be exact. I don't want to show them yet, because I want the main focus to be the question of "Who is James Harrow?"

Quote
Quote
What makes a good story is certainly not present in most mainstream manga. Accepted and logical are not synonymous.
Not exactly. A good "manga" can be presented in mainstream manga, and it has. But if you want to write any general good story, you have to understand that not all stories translate well in different mediums, and will need to be adjusted. You're going for a theme that may not translate well with readers, and will probably base it completely on artwork to hold for at least the beginning.

Quote
Quote
As far as understanding what actually teaches the fundamentals of any artform, I've always found that the mainstream only provides a limited perspective. And anyways, I don't know how a mainstream idea would teach me any more than Dream Library is now. The fact that Dream Library is such a difficult idea to write teaches me more than any "mainstream" story I've written (and I have written them. It isn't like this is my first story ever. I've been writing since third grade).

Not true. That's the problem with anyone who only had limited acess to certain mainstream manga. In order to understand what makes cult ideas great, (or golden) they first need to understand what makes.

Creating a successful mainstream series is different from making a mainstream manga in general. And if you believe mainstram manga has few perspectives, thats only because you limited yourself to what you define as "mainstream".
Well, redefine the word as you are using it and perhaps I will understand your point. For me, the way I used mainstream in the last few sentences was not in reference to manga, but stories in general. I did mainstream fantasy, sci-fi, drama, etc. Most of them won't ever see the light of day, and they didn't really heighten my sense of the mechanics of storytelling. Pacing, personal vs impersonal, characters dynamics, are things I'm learning much more from than the other stories I've written. Certainly, this series probably has flaws and I will see them eventually, but I am learning from it. I'm not just going to jump off the boat and write a mainstream story (whatever that means).

Quote
Quote
Again, distance will help me realize the flaws. I'm going to go ahead with my plan to write a bit more before going back and changing things (minus a couple really simple things). I will try to make changes to the way I write these and hopefully the newer chapters will inform the previous ones.
this is why it has to be done early, you dont use the criticism of previous chapters to work on the newer ones. you use that criticism on those chapters.
I use the principle of the flaws pointed out and I use them to help me improve. Pay in mind, I'm not saying I should finish the entire series before I go back. I'm saying 2 or 3 chapters.

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Quote
I never said no one ever asked you to change the story. I said that I, not other people, had emphasized that it was more important that you improve the way you write than what you write.
you need to improve on both.
Certainly. I never disagreed on the necessity of both, but I do disagree on their levels of importance.

Quote
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All in all, I'm not completely convinced of everything you're saying here. I will read Dream Library again and again to see if I see the same things you do, but, ultimately, I need to distance myself and come back. I won't rush to post the next few chapters and I'll allow them more time to stew. Perhaps it will help. But again, I need to distance myself from the earlier chapters before changing them dramatically.
i don't think you really gave what i told you an open mind. or rather, you not "trying" to put an open mind.
I could say the same to you. But I don't want to point fingers post per post anymore. 

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how distant do you need to be? look at what you generally revealed. the flaws are more within the concept itself. i dont thinky ou're trying to write a difficult story, i think you're trying to write in a fashion that doesn't suit manga.
I'm "trying" neither. Like I said, I'm only operating on what I think makes a good story. And how distant do I need to be? Distant enough to see any problems in the chapter. Period.

Question: Did you change Lunacy because you actually saw the problems that others suggested? Or did you do it because you simply had critics?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 02:38:33 PM by Paipis Panella »

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2013, 03:57:53 PM »
"effect" would not be easiest to understand though. I'll find a word that fits.
thats because you chose an odd sentence.

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He will be expounded upon. What characters do doesn't have to be explained within the chapter especially in graphic novel format, where chapters are all together.

Its important to the giving situation. This has nothing to do with character development, this has to do with the fact that the situation didn't really call for such a reaction.

when it comes to certain situations, some have to be explained or expanded thoroughly. you just want us to accept that as a vague scene? its hard to tell if the character just likes busting doors and yelling whenever it suits him or he really did have a valid reason.

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Certainly. The "distance" I'm speaking of is not the whole series, but two to three chapters.
you're distant enough to see chapter 1, unless you want chapter 4.

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Not anyone can be sergeant. I never said that. 1: There are multiple sergeants to lead multiple operations, which, in a big city, is a logical thing to do. 2: In a pyramid scheme, many people are looking to be promoted. There are other people qualified to make sergeant, but they're just waiting for the opportunity. I don't see your point here and I'm going to stop probing.
Point is you should consider having less sergeants.

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Still, don't see your point.
there's no point in hiding his face if you're going to reveal such a heavy personality.

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You're assuming this is a detective story. There are detectives in it, but you haven't even been introduced the the whole main idea yet. This is just the exposition. The main plot has only barely been touched on.

I don't have to assume anything. the fact that you added significance to the daily life of a captain of a police force means it "should" touch on some themes.

So its difficult to even care for this story if you're not taking advantage of the elements you provided and even touched on.

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There certainly will be a pattern. Three patterns to be exact. I don't want to show them yet, because I want the main focus to be the question of "Who is James Harrow?"
Like i said, you can provide more. More before the paper predicting... unfortunately its difficult to care about what you reveal

mainstream is all about dedicating to the masses. For example: classifying shonen as battle series because most young boys like that. But what if there was a manga dedicated to the small number of boys that liked romance and sad endings?

Writing a good story is the only focus. trying to classify anything as mainstream is the problem. but what makes your story good?


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] I use the principle of the flaws pointed out and I use them to help me improve. Pay in mind, I'm not saying I should finish the entire series before I go back. I'm saying 2 or 3 chapters.

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Certainly. I never disagreed on the necessity of both, but I do disagree on their levels of importance.

so what makes your story good?


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I could say the same to you. But I don't want to point fingers post per post, anymore.
i'm reading your story...i gave an abundance of information to you. some in which you eventually agreed to when you looked at it.

i give your series a chance as much as any other series here.

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I'm "trying" neither. Like I said, I'm only operating on what I think makes a good story. And how distant do I need to be? Distant enough to see any problems in the chapter. Period.
 

What does chapter 1, 2, and 3 accomplish then? and what do you expect your readers to care about in your story, just by those 3 chapters?

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Question: Did you change Lunacy because you actually saw the problems that others suggested? Or did you do it because you simply had critics?
i did it because i saw some issues. some things such as pointing out the obvious (which you failed to see the point in ) i just found other ways to reveal the information needed without having problems with other editors. But not only that, but i was able to see flaws no one pointed out.

Why did i do that? because i know if one person points it out and still gets the general premise of the story, than others will. its no point in "defending" something i know i can work around.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 04:12:28 PM by Lorenx1 »
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2013, 05:00:33 PM »
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He will be expounded upon. What characters do doesn't have to be explained within the chapter especially in graphic novel format, where chapters are all together.

Its important to the giving situation. This has nothing to do with character development, this has to do with the fact that the situation didn't really call for such a reaction.
What the situation calls for is entirely up to the character.

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when it comes to certain situations, some have to be explained or expanded thoroughly. you just want us to accept that as a vague scene? its hard to tell if the character just likes busting doors and yelling whenever it suits him or he really did have a valid reason.
Nobody busted any doors. Or are you talking about "John," the guy who attempted to murder the woman in the apartment? Obviously, he has a reason. He's being threatened.

Some of your points I finally understand. Some of those that I understand, I agree with.

After having printed the script of Chapter 1 out and taken a pen to it, my main critique of it is that it had too many ideas. This seems to be the root of all the issues you were having. It's not that things weren't made clear, although some weren't, it's that so many things were being thrown at the reader at once that they couldn't take in any subtleties. I did this initially to amend the emptiness in the original chp 1, but it backfired.

This is my compromise: I will revise chp 1 and wait a bit before posting chp 4 and 5. I will revise 2 and 3 somewhere in that proximity, once I feel confident in the identity of the problems.

Offline legomaestro

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2013, 05:13:54 PM »
just wanted to  share some counter-thoughts >.> ?

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"effect" would not be easiest to understand though. I'll find a word that fits.

 thats because you chose an odd sentence.

Is it possible for humans to make every sentence they speak perfect within character? A grim person won't always say dark sentences, and a cheerful person can be found swearing profoundly once in a while. Perhaps if the character made 'odd' sentences on more than one occasion that didn't fit their personality it could raise some flags...

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He will be expounded upon. What characters do doesn't have to be explained within the chapter especially in graphic novel format, where chapters are all together.


Its important to the giving situation. This has nothing to do with character development, this has to do with the fact that the situation didn't really call for such a reaction.

when it comes to certain situations, some have to be explained or expanded thoroughly. you just want us to accept that as a vague scene? its hard to tell if the character just likes busting doors and yelling whenever it suits him or he really did have a valid reason.

Like my earlier comment, I think characters aren't strict representation of their habits.  To the character's defence he's dealing with a murder and possible criminals in the building.

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Certainly. The "distance" I'm speaking of is not the whole series, but two to three chapters.
you're distant enough to see chapter 1, unless you want chapter 4.

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Not anyone can be sergeant. I never said that. 1: There are multiple sergeants to lead multiple operations, which, in a big city, is a logical thing to do. 2: In a pyramid scheme, many people are looking to be promoted. There are other people qualified to make sergeant, but they're just waiting for the opportunity. I don't see your point here and I'm going to stop probing.


Point is you should consider having less sergeants.

As Paipis says the seargents are for how large the city is. In any case it's hard and fruitless to actually know whether they're 'enough seargents' let alone any amount of personnel with any amount of promotions. Any single character in the police force could have a different opinion on the matter, and any civilian in the city in fact.
Unless we as readers get detailed information ranging from taxes to statistics of crime and personnel we can't really judge whether they're enough sergeants or not. It just doesn't seem relevant at this point.

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Still, don't see your point.


there's no point in hiding his face if you're going to reveal such a heavy personality.


Consider the emperor from Star Wars. He's face is in perpetual shadow for most of the series.
 
There's plenty examples of hidden faces with 'heavy' personality. People who are really interesting in some way or are even majorly connected to the plot, and yet aren't revealed until much later, and sometimes up until the very end of the series.

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You're assuming this is a detective story. There are detectives in it, but you haven't even been introduced the the whole main idea yet. This is just the exposition. The main plot has only barely been touched on.


I don't have to assume anything. the fact that you added significance to the daily life of a captain of a police force means it "should" touch on some themes.

So its difficult to even care for this story if you're not taking advantage of the elements you provided and even touched on.

It seems a bit odd to feel slighted by feeling that a story isn't touching on certain themes because of a perceived genre. Besides, not much has really happened yet for such judgements to be made.

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I'm "trying" neither. Like I said, I'm only operating on what I think makes a good story. And how distant do I need to be? Distant enough to see any problems in the chapter. Period.
 

What does chapter 1, 2, and 3 accomplish then? and what do you expect your readers to care about in your story, just by those 3 chapters?

Well as a reader so far I'm wondering what sort of will Indigo has inherited. Who in the world is James Harrow? Who is responsible for the predicted notes of murders? Among other things


I think there should be a little element of 'settling down for the ride' when reading a story. A mass of assumptions and personal preferences may make it hard for the author to share the tale properly.

But I know that not everything is perfect so you may have valid points that im missing. these were just my thoughts
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 05:16:47 PM by legomaestro »

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2013, 06:17:23 PM »
Is it possible for humans to make every sentence they speak perfect within character? A grim person won't always say dark sentences, and a cheerful person can be found swearing profoundly once in a while. Perhaps if the character made 'odd' sentences on more than one occasion that didn't fit their personality it could raise some flags...

doesn't really affect my point. If Paipis really wanted an imperfect way of saying things, this would had to be established in the story.

Whats the difference between a  character who is supposed to be the funny one in the story, but always says cheeasy jokes and A character who is supposed to be interpreted as someone who makes cheesy jokes?

the difference is how the reader is suppose to view the character. if the reader sees flaws in the character, they don't see the character, they see the author and their flaws.

Do i see Masaomi from Durarara!! a flawed character because the author used cheesy jokes for him? No...i see Masaomi as a character who has cheesy bad jokes because

But in Dream Library, do i see a well-mannered character? do i see a mysterious boy? no. i see bad word choice on the author's part, and odd sentences. trying a little too hard to be technical and formal.

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Like my earlier comment, I think characters aren't strict representation of their habits.  To the character's defence he's dealing with a murder and possible criminals in the building.

But how do we know that for sure? it was also a bit excessive to send out a whole squad if you ask me, but again...how does he know this is related to the murder? you can't defend something yet unless you know its for that readon but also note that this chapter makes use of it and then lets it go. so that's why i'm making a big issue of it. because its not something you will see later on.

Paipis made a scene that seems forgettable but odd looking....and someone who wants to be drawn in, can't really take that scene as just is, if it looks that odd.

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Consider the emperor from Star Wars. He's face is in perpetual shadow for most of the series.
 
There's plenty examples of hidden faces with 'heavy' personality. People who are really interesting in some way or are even majorly connected to the plot, and yet aren't revealed until much later, and sometimes up until the very end of the series.
Star Wars was a bad example. Palpatine's personality was not a highlight. not only that but he was still distinguishable, and you could see his face just fine. it was only in Star Wars 1-3 that you couldn't and that's most likely the fact that that his identity was secret.

For those shadow figures that show up, but  they are done multiple...but this case it doesn't really call for it. Its only one character talking to another.

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It seems a bit odd to feel slighted by feeling that a story isn't touching on certain themes because of a perceived genre. Besides, not much has really happened yet for such judgements to be made.


If you make a movie about fantasy, are you going to cover fantasy elements?

there's alot of "police" work being done. but the decisions here are based completely in an un-police manner. But considering the main characters are part of a police department, the majority of the chapter has been setting in police work, and the vase majority of the subtleties are police work in chapter 1. its hard to avoid them and without your reader asking questions.

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Well as a reader so far I'm wondering what sort of will Indigo has inherited. Who in the world is James Harrow? Who is responsible for the predicted notes of murders? Among other things
i'm not asking you.

you shouldn't interffere in this. it will only give Paipis an excuse to not answer the question on his own.

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I think there should be a little element of 'settling down for the ride' when reading a story. A mass of assumptions and personal preferences may make it hard for the author to share the tale properly.

But I know that not everything is perfect so you may have valid points that im missing. these were just my thoughts
indeed you are.

What the situation calls for is entirely up to the character.
in which needs to be expanded if it is deemed unreasonable. in which in this case it is. theres not much motive for it, the story suddenly skyrockets from then on.

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Nobody busted any doors. Or are you talking about "John," the guy who attempted to murder the woman in the apartment? Obviously, he has a reason. He's being threatened.

Some of your points I finally understand. Some of those that I understand, I agree with.

After having printed the script of Chapter 1 out and taken a pen to it, my main critique of it is that it had too many ideas. This seems to be the root of all the issues you were having. It's not that things weren't made clear, although some weren't, it's that so many things were being thrown at the reader at once that they couldn't take in any subtleties. I did this initially to amend the emptiness in the original chp 1, but it backfired.

This is my compromise: I will revise chp 1 and wait a bit before posting chp 4 and 5. I will revise 2 and 3 somewhere in that proximity, once I feel confident in the identity of the problems.

we're still here talking about Auberon, the situation of him walking in and yelling at the captain. it seems unnatural, not because his character is some guy who just has to let his anger out, but rather he the situation just didn't seem as necessary. If you're going to make a character do something that doesn't rely on common sense, you should at least get the reader comfortable with it. and you seem to continue to avoid answering the area other than claiming its part of the character, but we don't get to see much. He mentioned that there was "circumstances" of knowing something predetermined, but it felt more like an excuse. 

And maybe you do have too many ideas, but there's also the lack of "flow" in your chapters. the pacing changes drastically.
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2013, 10:08:45 PM »
The odd word choice was admitted. The suggestions you made did not make any more sense to me, so I'm going to find the word, or perhaps rearrangement of the sentence that works.

As for Auberon: (1) He did not bust through the door, he was waiting there the entire time like Sarah ordered him to. John didn't hear him the first time he said don't move. (2) What is unreasonable about the character will be made clear. It isn't necessarily completely unreasonable either, and I never said it was. I just said that what is reasonable for that character do depends on that character's judgement. Either way, I'm not sure of the fate of that scene. Everything is up in the air when I take a pen to it.

As for pacing, that is mostly dependent on the amount of ideas in the work. The pacing would be more consistent without so many elements. The chapter also doesn't have a clear objective. I've been reading some of Urasawa's works, which portray a somewhat similar model to what I'm aiming for. His chapters have a clear objective, even if they jump around in terms of time and place. They get one idea across. He sometimes just spends an entire chapter introducing a character. All the problems I'm having are simply a result of putting too many ideas in one chapter.

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2013, 10:44:29 PM »
As for Auberon: (1) He did not bust through the door, he was waiting there the entire time like Sarah ordered him to. John didn't hear him the first time he said don't move. (2) What is unreasonable about the character will be made clear. It isn't necessarily completely unreasonable either, and I never said it was. I just said that what is reasonable for that character do depends on that character's judgement. Either way, I'm not sure of the fate of that scene. Everything is up in the air when I take a pen to it.
well how you can clarify that scene if it was a scene meant to be forgotten?

And again...you're trying to justify the reason by his personality, but you also have to consider how much the situation called for his personality to reveal such an exposition.

lets say my character loves to joke around, and in chapter 1 there's a funeral. will i make him say as many jokes as he pleases? sure it reveals the character, but not the situation. i dont understand the importance or at least why its important to auberon.

i know i'm going to see more of that...i'm just not confident you will be explaining that circumstance. it doesn't seem like you saw the relevance of it.

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As for pacing, that is mostly dependent on the amount of ideas in the work. The pacing would be more consistent without so many elements. The chapter also doesn't have a clear objective. I've been reading some of Urasawa's works, which portray a somewhat similar model to what I'm aiming for. His chapters have a clear objective, even if they jump around in terms of time and place. They get one idea across. He sometimes just spends an entire chapter introducing a character. All the problems I'm having are simply a result of putting too many ideas in one chapter.


we'll see how this affects chapter 2. the first chapter sets the ground for everything. u choose to remove something, it affects more chapters.
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2013, 11:09:07 PM »
As for Auberon: (1) He did not bust through the door, he was waiting there the entire time like Sarah ordered him to. John didn't hear him the first time he said don't move. (2) What is unreasonable about the character will be made clear. It isn't necessarily completely unreasonable either, and I never said it was. I just said that what is reasonable for that character do depends on that character's judgement. Either way, I'm not sure of the fate of that scene. Everything is up in the air when I take a pen to it.
well how you can clarify that scene if it was a scene meant to be forgotten?
Never said it was meant to be forgotten. When I said "take a pen to it," I meant a literal pen. Basically the mark up session I just had. My ideas that I wrote down could mean the deletion of that scene, but I'm not sure. I still don't understand the point you're making about Auberon. I won't probe anymore. I certainly have my objections, but I feel I've found most of the problems in the story.

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As for pacing, that is mostly dependent on the amount of ideas in the work. The pacing would be more consistent without so many elements. The chapter also doesn't have a clear objective. I've been reading some of Urasawa's works, which portray a somewhat similar model to what I'm aiming for. His chapters have a clear objective, even if they jump around in terms of time and place. They get one idea across. He sometimes just spends an entire chapter introducing a character. All the problems I'm having are simply a result of putting too many ideas in one chapter.


we'll see how this affects chapter 2. the first chapter sets the ground for everything. u choose to remove something, it affects more chapters.
Indeed. What I change in chapter 1 will certainly change the latter chapters.

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2013, 10:10:24 AM »
Never said it was meant to be forgotten. When I said "take a pen to it," I meant a literal pen. Basically the mark up session I just had. My ideas that I wrote down could mean the deletion of that scene, but I'm not sure. I still don't understand the point you're making about Auberon. I won't probe anymore. I certainly have my objections, but I feel I've found most of the problems in the story.
i know you didn't say it, but i can tell just by  how casual the information has been revealed to auberon, it didn't seem like a scene meant to be thought thoroughly and it doesn't seem like answers will be provided later about that specific scene (hence, meant to be forgotten).

but if you do decide to keep it, i suggest expanding it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 10:14:22 AM by Lorenx1 »
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.