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Author Topic: The Dream Library Discussion Thread  (Read 3949 times)

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Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2013, 10:20:05 PM »
i'msorry, i can't really provide much help....this story is so abstract, like i'm sure theres stuff going on in the background or something, but i find it far too jarring.

i trully cannot read this story. it sort of reminds me of the flaws Durarara has, starting off a little too simple, that theres lack of focus.

I'm not really fond of the indent when it comes to their names, that's probably a factor, constantly shifting my eyes to read is a bit of a bother.

but its not really trying to be a comic, or a manga, but just some film noir live action.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 10:21:40 PM by Lorenx1 »
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Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2013, 06:40:59 PM »
If you really feel you can't read it, that's quite alright. I haven't read Durarara! yet, so I'll read it to see if that might inform me a bit more on your problems with Dream Library.

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2013, 11:36:03 PM »
If you were intending to make this a manga, i can find every fault there is.

but since your not, its like looking at something i dont understand.

Durarara (anime) was the problem, because it tried to translate a light novel into an anime directly. and most of the time that works, but other times it doesn't.
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Offline Nairbons

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2013, 12:14:28 AM »
     The Durarara! anime had about the same issues as Baccano! Both shows introduced huge casts from the very start and refused to give away too much information about anybody's background or motivation for the first half of the series or so. Now, Baccano harnessed a non-linear form of storytelling, and the constant hopping around the timeline made things a hassle to keep up with at first. Fortunately, it also allowed the viewer a sneak peek at the aftermath of the main "present" storyline. This reassured the viewer that there was a very clear destination that the story was heading for, that the characters would be developed, and that you should just enjoy the ride. Baccano was a great anime, and when the series picked up it's pace (around the halfway point), everything meshed together perfectly and cohesively. It was masterfully adapted from the light novels that the series was based on.

     Durarara! was based on a light novel written by the same author that had originally written Baccano, but the adaptation took the linear method of storytelling with largely the same number of characters with the same limited amount of background provided. The whole startup process felt a lot slower, as the show had to tease with a lot of exposition and introduce everybody's main motivations without giving away any of the big twists. This made the first few episodes drag on quite a bit, especially since this show used a lot more of the "awkward high school transfer student" tropes that are so common in anime. HOWEVER, right around the midpoint of the series, everything falls into place and the plot kicks into gear in a grand manner. The remainder of the series is a string of well-coordinated reveals, action scenes, and character drama that oozes good storytelling.

[Those paragraphs are relevant because...]

     Now, I haven't read the new Chapter 3 yet, but I can see where Lorenx1 would draw comparisons between Dream Library and Durarara. However, I wouldn't say this is a bad thing by any strech of the imagination. I love those Guy Ritchie-esque stories that set everything up for the long haul only to have an extended whiz-bang climax. I'm also excited to see somebody trying to pull off that brand of story here on MR, where I can watch the whole thing unfold (and to maybe have some kind of influence, if I'm feeling narcissistic).

     If I could make one request, though: Since you're not using any sort of graphic storytelling or novel-like extended descriptions, could you please post a brief list of characters and some short descriptions?A kind of "Dramatis Personae" would be great for your story's scriptlike structure. It doesn't even have to give information on characters' backgrounds, but a short descriptor of their physical appearance. As I read your work, I think it would be easier to have some kind of defined mental image for these characters rather than the constantly-shifting patchwork of faces that I can't quite get a bead on.

Thanks, and keep it up!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 12:19:57 AM by nairbons »

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2013, 12:55:39 AM »
     The Durarara! anime had about the same issues as Baccano! Both shows introduced huge casts from the very start and refused to give away too much information about anybody's background or motivation for the first half of the series or so. Now, Baccano harnessed a non-linear form of storytelling, and the constant hopping around the timeline made things a hassle to keep up with at first. Fortunately, it also allowed the viewer a sneak peek at the aftermath of the main "present" storyline. This reassured the viewer that there was a very clear destination that the story was heading for, that the characters would be developed, and that you should just enjoy the ride. Baccano was a great anime, and when the series picked up it's pace (around the halfway point), everything meshed together perfectly and cohesively. It was masterfully adapted from the light novels that the series was based on.

     Durarara! was based on a light novel written by the same author that had originally written Baccano, but the adaptation took the linear method of storytelling with largely the same number of characters with the same limited amount of background provided. The whole startup process felt a lot slower, as the show had to tease with a lot of exposition and introduce everybody's main motivations without giving away any of the big twists. This made the first few episodes drag on quite a bit, especially since this show used a lot more of the "awkward high school transfer student" tropes that are so common in anime. HOWEVER, right around the midpoint of the series, everything falls into place and the plot kicks into gear in a grand manner. The remainder of the series is a string of well-coordinated reveals, action scenes, and character drama that oozes good storytelling.

[Those paragraphs are relevant because...]

     Now, I haven't read the new Chapter 3 yet, but I can see where Lorenx1 would draw comparisons between Dream Library and Durarara. However, I wouldn't say this is a bad thing by any strech of the imagination. I love those Guy Ritchie-esque stories that set everything up for the long haul only to have an extended whiz-bang climax. I'm also excited to see somebody trying to pull off that brand of story here on MR, where I can watch the whole thing unfold (and to maybe have some kind of influence, if I'm feeling narcissistic).

     If I could make one request, though: Since you're not using any sort of graphic storytelling or novel-like extended descriptions, could you please post a brief list of characters and some short descriptions?A kind of "Dramatis Personae" would be great for your story's scriptlike structure. It doesn't even have to give information on characters' backgrounds, but a short descriptor of their physical appearance. As I read your work, I think it would be easier to have some kind of defined mental image for these characters rather than the constantly-shifting patchwork of faces that I can't quite get a bead on.

Thanks, and keep it up!

But the thing that Durarara!! had over Dream Library is that it still tried to be a focused eastern-design story. So even if it wasn't translated well into anime, it still did a good job at it. It had a proper beginning, introducing a character, and the people he met. Even in the anime, despite being introducing a large cast, it did it in a way where you know they are important, but they don't all need to be highlighted in that moment.

Unfortunately, with Dream Library, its that its a completely different design that doesn't attempt to be manga exactly. its not that i don't see flaws, its just that the flaw is in term of direction and uncertainty that this is something Paipis wants to keep or intended (because like i said, this isn't really designed to be manga, so he could very well be saying "manga does this, so i'm going to do that")

But if i had to say, there's lack of visuals descriptions between scenes, and because of that, the story doesn't feel focused at all and feels very rushed. Usually in script, introducing the background is just as important as introducing characters, and it has been dodged almost to an extent for lack of visuals.

In the beginning of chapter 1 (which was incredibly jarring to read) we see some heavy scenes which were a dream (mixed in with some odd dialogue) it all seemed incredibly random, the story begins and we get these dates.


Some i can tell are for the reader to know in the future. but the problem with that system is that its not really meant to be shown in comic form, not every scene can be expressed through what time it occurred. and he attempts this with a dream by putting a range of when it happened. but it sort of reveals something that just not really needed to know.  (it also seems to be dropped later on in the story, so it seems pointless)

and for that, its incredibly off putting. Another thing i found off putting was the naming convention when i hear on the radio that someone was killed in "darkside" avenue across "guildtower" now i understand these may be something

Again, the same issues I've seen before, how characters aren't really introduced properly to the reader. No one had called her "Sarah" yet, she's introduced in text. Another is the character "Auberon". where did he come from? who the heck is he?

things I've pointed out in the past, yet Paipis has not addressed. and this is an issue because although she introduced me to her as "Sarah" in my mind is forced to follow the visual representation that the script provides. so in my mind, she isn't "Sarah" yet until she's formally introduced as such in the story. A dream showing a character calling out the name "sarah" doesn't help.

I constantly hear the word "enact" a few times. which i know the definition, but doesn't look like everyday words you hear in conversations. it doesn't seem to be used as accurately either.

Everything in this story is revealed extremely casual, its difficult to see what is going on and i think part of it is lack of build up.  but the characters tend to have no personality, it feels like they are these blank pages. i can't really understand them. some dialogue feels forced such as "may i ask what" "you may not" "are you OK" "i'm fine". its very forced in my opinion. but most older shows such as those tend to not highlight personality or distinction at all.


the simplest solution, is start at an earlier time. it just seems like we missed a chunk of the conspiracy or case to even feel familiar with it. For example: my story, Lunacy needs to introduced characters life, the common known legend and basics before entering this think known as amber moon games and lunatics.

but then again, that's my story, and Paipis is going at a completely different direction. So all this criticism could be to waste if Paipis believes this is irrelevant to his personal method of story telling.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 02:07:30 AM by Lorenx1 »
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Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2013, 06:11:18 AM »
ON second thought, maybe its not the fact of direction, its just i'm afraid theres so much work, piapis may not even consider revamping the series (as i initially suggested in the beginning).

the series is jarring, and i understand its hard to find it once you've written it down, but so far, i'm seeing alot of forced story.  Some parts "seem" to look technical, others appear to show too much drama, and others just

I'm not gathering anything in this story....its as if you want us to imagine this as if it was a live action film noir, or those old tv shows where you can hear all the office noises and focus on the subtleties just a little too much.

but the fact that it sets in modern day just makes it pointless. i'm really not grasping this. i get the general premise, but theres so many questions....not questions for wanting more, but rather "can you clarify?" type of questions.

I mean....i think i kept myself quiet too long on the true issues with this story. i think either its not fully envisioned, or lack of explanation and proper script process. i'm also considering lack of revisions.
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Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2013, 10:54:33 AM »
The introduction of Sarah's name hasn't been fixed, but it has been noted. The way I introduce character's names is a bit weird and I'm trying to improve upon it. A lot of it seems to come down to bad presentation on my part.

I do want to clarify that the story is in its exposition. The main plot hasn't been introduced quite yet, because the main characters are being introduced through the tension of the mystery, "Who is James Harrow?"

The modern day setting (not sure what the complaint is here) is to symbolize the sharp rationalism of the villains, James' struggle against those philosophies, and as a contrast against the supernatural elements.

The characterization/dialogue problems, I'm not getting. I use the English language in a more literary way than you would find in most translations of manga/anime.

Some of it is direction; some of it is just wrestling with the script format. I appreciate the thoughts, I really do. I want to revise all the chapters eventually, but I feel it might keep me from finishing completely. I at least want to make some progress in the story before going back to revise.

Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2013, 01:00:19 PM »
Too, that dialogue section seeming "forced"— while I don't know exactly what you mean by that— might be you sensing the distrust Sarah has for most people, except for Auberon, and not knowing why she distrusts them. There is a reason for this, and it will be revealed later in the story. If it seems abnormal behavior, the reason might be because it is.

But I've said the same thing about Lunacy— that the dialogue seems "forced." I think we could argue all day about dialogue, and not get anywhere.

Offline legomaestro

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2013, 03:11:38 PM »
You should definately keep alert to any criticisms on how to improve your story, but first I think you should definately get some mileage done, finish your script and revisions will be better off to make, unless you consider the problems to be very real and require a rewrite, but to be honest I wouldn't have the energy to do that.

In any case I'll stand by my earlier judgment. No matter what strange time skips are happening, I saw what Baccano did with what was quickly becoming an annoying habit of switching scenes, and the way it was salvaged and turned into a masterpiece has made me reconsider stories where everything is spoon-fed to me from the get go. I'll let it grow for a while.

To be honest I'm motivated by how anyone could 'beat' the mechanism of the Dream Library, as well as the allusions from the original write up about how crazy things get: assasin organisations and what-not.

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2013, 03:15:09 PM »
Too, that dialogue section seeming "forced"— while I don't know exactly what you mean by that— might be you sensing the distrust Sarah has for most people, except for Auberon, and not knowing why she distrusts them. There is a reason for this, and it will be revealed later in the story. If it seems abnormal behavior, the reason might be because it is.

But I've said the same thing about Lunacy— that the dialogue seems "forced." I think we could argue all day about dialogue, and not get anywhere.

But here's the thing, for the most part, you argued about Dialogue pointing out the obvious. but here i see literally nothing distinct. I was intending to develop my own form of dialogue, since its an original world, but it didn't work out. even though you argued about it, and sometimes i didn't agree, i still left room to.

Right now you're giving me the answers to what i don't see in your story rather than revising and seeing how you can express this more in a more intentional way. Usually when to comes to law enforcement and or any military, the one with the higher rank doesn't always need to brief them exactly the details.

So if theres something unusual, that would be something to consider. I'm seeing lack of research. you shouldn't be quick to use "sergeant" for multiple groups. Usually its either A) the second in command or B) squad leader. in chapter 2, you introduced a huge set.

if this is not even the main story, it seems like an even bigger waste to present your story in such a way where there's not much interest in the characters at all. the story right now is heavily . But just to give you just a taste of how the word "enact" disrupts the dialogue in your story.

            Boy
Justice, Sarah? What does that even mean? Even if you knew, you would be helpless, like the rest of us, to enact it.


          Sarah
I’m just trying to be realistic. Someone could be playing with us to enact their own agenda. We should verify the list, but don’t get too excited about what we do afterwards.


for the most part, it seems you're trying way too hard to make every conversation seem "formal" that it detracts a bit on who these characters are. the word enact isn't used as accurately as you believe, there are better words out there to you. But the choppy sentences are there too.

The boy could've said "Justice, Sarah? What does that even mean? Even if you knew, you wouldn't be able to fulfill/obtain it. Just like the rest of us." (but then again, it was so theatrical, it had to be in intentional. this is why I've hesitated pointing out flaws in the past, because the vast majority of this looks "intentional")

trust me, your story needs far more revisions than you think. Right now paipis, i think your story is heavily flawed in both story presentation and flow. How can we care about this story if not even the case seems that interesting. For one, we already seeing a form of conspiracy, but the way everything is handled seems to be bland, and the cast seems to act like they should at a job, except with auberon who seemed out of character when he kicked the door. Which i'm not even sure if he was the sergant from before.

its very choppy. very....at least consider proof-reading something.
You should definately keep alert to any criticisms on how to improve your story, but first I think you should definately get some mileage done, finish your script and revisions will be better off to make, unless you consider the problems to be very real and require a rewrite, but to be honest I wouldn't have the energy to do that.

In any case I'll stand by my earlier judgment. No matter what strange time skips are happening, I saw what Baccano did with what was quickly becoming an annoying habit of switching scenes, and the way it was salvaged and turned into a masterpiece has made me reconsider stories where everything is spoon-fed to me from the get go. I'll let it grow for a while.

To be honest I'm motivated by how anyone could 'beat' the mechanism of the Dream Library, as well as the allusions from the original write up about how crazy things get: assasin organisations and what-not.
don't confuse spoon fed with providing context. Baccano still provided the context needed to get the story going.  Although we get some context, certain aspects get highlighted in certain ways, and i'm starting to see how this story just is a little bland.

Its not like Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone complex where the characters weren't the most colorful of personalities, but it still managed to be a good anime because the case they were working on was incredibly interesting and wanting us to keep coming for more.  for the first chapter, i saw some random personalities that didn't fit with the emotion.



« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 03:22:27 PM by Lorenx1 »
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Offline legomaestro

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2013, 03:52:38 PM »
Haha, GITS characters are too realistic and almost bored the hell out of me, until indeed I was drawn into the story.

Hmm I'm scratching my head over the issues you're having with the story. Is it way the dialogue was written is a problem? E.g like the 'enact' issue.

Or is it that what they talk about doesn't fit with the characters who say it? (Someone speaking formally when they shouldn't.

Or is it that the dialogue somehow doesn't fit with the genre? (I'm thinking this is a 'mystery' story.)


Maybe I read too fast so I missed some issues, I'll read it again to check when I have the time...

Offline Lumaria

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2013, 04:09:13 PM »
Haha, GITS characters are too realistic and almost bored the hell out of me, until indeed I was drawn into the story.

Hmm I'm scratching my head over the issues you're having with the story. Is it way the dialogue was written is a problem? E.g like the 'enact' issue.

Or is it that what they talk about doesn't fit with the characters who say it? (Someone speaking formally when they shouldn't.

Or is it that the dialogue somehow doesn't fit with the genre? (I'm thinking this is a 'mystery' story.)


Maybe I read too fast so I missed some issues, I'll read it again to check when I have the time...

the dialogue tries to sound too formal and sometimes too technical the majority of the time.

the other time, there is vast amount of drama that happens too fast. we really don't get to see the motivation for auberon to slam the door open and start yelling at sarah.

the man who yelled at the other guy saying he could get rid of him anytime he wants. he sounded completely immature or rather someone who lacked patience. so why would someone with lack of patience be spearheading others to do what he asks? Wouldn't it be better to sound more "mysterious" rather than exposing such a big personality? such as "You have XX minutes left, hurry or i'll/we'll find someone else to "replace" you"

And the man seemed genuinely afraid of him when he said he can be expendable. but again, lack of context is done here. He meets this girl, who seemed to know him and act like nothing, but he seemed force to do something.

these are the areas i'm not sure Paipis thought all the way through.

the general idea doesn't really grasp me, the mystery seemingly just introduced, and im assuming Paipis intentionally introduced the story in a very inconvenient point.

its heavy heavy idea....and to me, it doesn't seem like theres much grasp of mainstream ideas for him to even attempt a cult idea. for the most part, i'm imagining Sarah with a straight face every time,

lack of background also causes lack of imagination. not just on presentation but on how the plot is imagined. not many are taking.


revisions are important if they have to be done at a grand scale, and i personally believe the entire idea has to be revamped. it doesn't seem solid at all, the idea also seems lacking in hooks. its a murder case that seems to all be planned.
If paipis keeps rushing it, i'm not so sure he'll get much fans.
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Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2013, 05:40:55 PM »
"Enact" is the word that the character would use. You haven't met him quite yet. Reasons will be given as to why Auberon has the confidence to criticize his superior officer (he is closer to Sarah than most of the other Sergeants, as you've noticed). As far as the briefing thing, she tells them so that they wouldn't suspect her as the culprit behind the crimes. Not to mention, this list is a special situation that would change the way the station operates. Her sergeants would have a right to know. Too, sergeants are usually over watch shifts, not always entire stations. In cities, there are usually multiple sergeants under one leader. It isn't just the "second-in-command." It's more like a pyramid scheme. Anyways, police ranks and their meaning change (very) drastically from place to place. The most important thing is for the terminology to be consistent. I use "sergeant" to refer to one of the six officers under the captain. That never changes. "The man who yelled at the other guy" is a character whose motives will be pretty clearly developed. I have thought about these things.

Of course the girl knows the man who visited her. That's what you're supposed to infer. Of course, the man was forced to kill her— by the guy who told him he could kill him at any moment.

To be honest, I feel like you are indeed missing things. I agree with certain parts of your criticisms, particularly relating to the format, for which I am trying to concoct solutions. But some of your other criticisms really don't seem to make any sense whatsoever.

Also, as far as starting with a "cult" story, I'm starting with what I think is good story telling. I have little to no interest in Bleach, Naruto, Dragon Ball, One Piece, Fairy Tale, or most mainstream manga. They constitute a lot of what I'm trying to avoid. Don't get me wrong, there are ones that I like a lot, like Death Note or Fullmetal Alchemist, but, for the most part, it's not what I want to write. This is a very difficult idea to write, and most of my ideas since have been simpler, but mainstream is not something that I want to aim for. "Cult" is not even something I'm aiming for consciously anyways. I pay little attention to what genre it falls under. I liked the idea, so I decided to write it.

As far as the revamping thing: The reason why I'm not revamping now is not because I don't think it needs work (although you've not convinced me of the need for a total revamp), but because I've never finished a series. To be honest, rewriting it before even finishing it chronologically was a mistake, but I can't stop now. The critiques, I use like the art section uses theirs. I make peace for now with what I've written and I apply what I've learned from what people have said to my future works. I can't improve if I'm just constantly revamping my story to fix something I'm not even convinced of. I think I said before on Lunacy that I wasn't critiquing so that you'd change your story, I was critiquing so that you'd improve your skills and change your writing altogether. The same holds true for Dream Library. I don't want you to critique just so I'll change what's already there. I want you to tell me how I can improve as a writer. Also, the farther I am in the story, the more mistakes I'll be able to see in the earlier chapters. I am willing to see those problems and give your criticisms a fair trial, but I just don't see it. If they are actual problems with the story, I will see it eventually if I keep writing and distance myself from what I've already written.

Offline Nairbons

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Re: The Dream Library Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2013, 11:07:05 PM »
(Nods head) Okay, that makes a lot more sense. I'd definitely agree with the notion of wanting to finish something just to get it out of your system. I have no doubt that you'll gradually key in to the best way to write it as you go along. The kinks should gradually work themselves out as you progress, but remember to reread what you've done after a full night of rest. It helps to distance yourself from your work when you're about to critique yourself. just think about all of the webcomic artists that can't look back on their first few pages.

It'd also be a good idea to remember that written literature is a lot more open to interpretation than other artistic mediums. A reader ends up doing half of the storytelling work in their own minds, and that makes critiquing things a lot more abstract and open to interpretation.  Don't ignore things, but just... take it all with a hefty grain of salt. Or a whole salt-lick

In conclusion, my advice is: write the whole thing in one go, return to the first bit later for revisions. Maybe add some environment descriptors in between scene transitions.