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Author Topic: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)  (Read 72898 times)

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Offline suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1245 on: April 21, 2019, 04:21:19 PM »
MR has been a bit quiet lately? well I guess that happens.
My cold is so bad my ears are blocked and everything is muffled >_<

332 WIPs remaining. I've done so much of this lately I'm getting legitimately confused about what I want to do as an artist and what direction I want to go. Also my short to-do list is about 4 months long >_<



well as you all my have noticed I started to get a bit OCD with writing all the times for each iteration as I go through my sketches (just look at the second image in this post - 6 numbers and a total!!). I realised that it takes up quite a bit of time to actually look at my timer app and write the lap time, then press lap on the timer. I'm doing that over 100 times in each drawing. it might only be 5 seconds but I'm trying to "beat the system" level streamline here. Also totaling up was a becoming a real pain.
So needless to say some programming was in order. I made basically a more complicated timer program. each box represents the respective image on my page. clicking on a box will increase its time by the lap time and reset the lap time. I only have to write the time spent on the image at the end. It feels way faster and I can focus on the task which is drawing. of course, simply not timing the drawing isn't an option haha.


As usual, I don't really know what I am doing but I think I'm improving.

And I ran out of linearts so my DA is now silent.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 04:23:08 PM by suuper-san »
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Offline JackOfArtAndProse

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1246 on: April 21, 2019, 04:37:06 PM »
You might've already considered this, but... what is your end goal? I find that it's easier to advance in life(and hobbies) if I have my ultimate end goal in sight.

So... if you want to draw manga, what kind of manga do you want to draw? That'll tell you what kind of references you need in the long run, as well as what kind of practice(specifically) you'll need to get better.

Offline suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1247 on: April 21, 2019, 04:58:36 PM »
thanks for the comment!
well I'd certainly like to make a living off my art, and (possibly related) I would definitely like to have a serial manga.
other than that I don't if I want to do comissions or youtube tutorials or 3d architecture work or even what style I want to draw, the list is endless haha. I usually just say "I want to get good at art" and I'll figure out what I want to do when I get there.

Along with photos, I do use a lot of manga references for picking up different drawing styles and drawing effects like magic/explosions etc. I certainly lean towards wanting to do a fantasy story. Game worlds like SAO ,Log Horizon, Overlord (is that even a game world?) are very close to what I want, although I don't mind medieval fantasy like Konosuba, modern fantasy like the Fate series, pure random comedy like Gintama, Working!! or romance like Kimi ni Todoke, KareKano .
I dont even know if I want to draw shounen, seinen or shoujo style so I just keep pushing my base skill to be able to draw better, and I'll figure out something closer to the time. oh, and I want to be able to do quick portaits of people haha
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Offline JackOfArtAndProse

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1248 on: April 21, 2019, 05:23:22 PM »
I tip off my cap to you for for listing SAO and Log Horizon. And the Fate series holds a special place in my heart even now.

Well, I guess part of the charm of the hobby(to you) is that you can take whatever path you want. You might want to keep your options open and become a generalist, being able to draw all kinds of stuff and styles. You seemed to mention that you've already picked up a lot of styles, so that seems to coincide with my t

Just keep at it, I guess? XD

Offline suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1249 on: April 21, 2019, 05:30:40 PM »
haha thanks :)
SAO and Log Horizon are very high in my rewatch list and are among the very few anime that I have already rewatched more than once :P

yeah I think I would like to have the ability to draw any style and genre I fancy. I'd also like to memorize lots of characters from anime/manga so I could sketch them real fast to show off XD. copying other artists styles exactly is also one of my goals.
I think one of my goals is definitely to be able to draw quickly and precisely with no wastage of time because that's just plain cool and you can get more done if you are efficient. So I suppose I want to become an "efficient artist" XD

I think eventually I want to take a specific path and become expert in one area, not Jack of all trades, though.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 05:34:01 PM by suuper-san »
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Offline JackOfArtAndProse

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1250 on: April 21, 2019, 05:37:53 PM »
I'll say, your thinking sounds very similar to mine. I take a lot of pride in efficiency and being able to do things in the best possible way. I apply this to every practice in my life. Thus, personally, I find the idea of becoming a generalist very appealing.

Offline suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1251 on: April 21, 2019, 05:44:20 PM »
same, it's because i appreciate the usefulness of efficiency that i try and apply it to my art (seriously, who else programs apps to make their art workflow faster? I'm mad XD). i suppose the only reason i shy away from being completely generalist is that i want to REALLY excel at something, proper pro level, and i think spreading myself too thin might prevent that happening. i will still probably try at multiple skills, because being better at several things is nice.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 05:46:52 PM by suuper-san »
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Offline JackOfArtAndProse

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1252 on: April 21, 2019, 06:07:17 PM »
Aye, and trying your hand at lots of different things can help you to find new things you like, and new ways of doing things. But yes, I agree - specialization comes first, especially as a manga artist. For example, it might come into play by having to choose between sci-fi machinery and fantasy-esque landscapes(that is, of course, an extreme example).

...But if I'm honest, you might be the more hardcore efficiency afficionado(out of us two).
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 11:43:57 AM by JackOfArtAndProse »

Offline Walter B

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1253 on: April 22, 2019, 11:37:43 AM »
Cool drawings! I like Overlord too. I just finished it recently.

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Offline suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1254 on: April 22, 2019, 04:39:53 PM »
Quote
having to choose between sci-fi machinery and fantasy-esque landscapes
Noooooooo don't make me chooooooose!!!!!!!
Well my determination to become better at art gets stronger as time passes, along with my methods improving with time as well. A few years ago I was never this active or productive although my goals were the same. I also thought that exact same sentiment a few years ago, and a few years before that. Definitely bursts of skill and inspiration seem to be my driving force XD

@walterB yup it's one of my (many) favourites. the openings and endings were also fab which i frequently listen to.

320 WIPs remaining. I don't think a final last spurt is possible since it does take nearly 4-5 minutes on each one, but I might be able to get a bit more streamlining in somewhere haha
also working on 20 at a time is starting to be a heavy load, since I'm putting a lot more effort into the uniqueness and complexity of each design. could always skip backgrounds for a bit since I really want to work on that separately for a bit anyway.



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Offline Ryan

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1255 on: April 24, 2019, 05:19:21 AM »
(What am I doing with my life making this post at 5am. . .

Well, I think I've put off giving you some serious feedback on your stuff for a while now. And seeing you sort of floundering made me decide to write this. I think it's important to allow people to make their mistakes and decisions, but I decided to give you my full, 100% critical perspective on what you've been doing).

Working like crazy still, I see.

I think you will benefit from picking the style of 2-3 artists that you want to draw like, and imitating them all the time. Even when you're drawing from imagination—you really try to become that person in totality. You try to understand them, their sensibilities, and why they draw the way they do.

Indecisiveness is really the enemy here for you. Don't think of it as what you want to do with your art. Think of it as who you aspire to. What you want to draw like.

But why should you pick?

Because you're indecisive, it's even more important that you pick.

To move forward to a higher level of skill, you need to dive deep into the realm of specifics. Specifics of character design, specifics of emotionality to drawing.

Communicating and illustrating specifics is what will bring you skill. Your sketches are very general, and hard to read due to the technique you're using. The line-weight you are using is letting you get away with not resolving your sketches.

Get rid of the pressure-sensitivity. Draw with a uniform line thickness that is easy to see, and is exact to the artists you pick to imitate. If the drawing isn't resolved, you don't move on to the next one.

Most likely, this will lead you down the path of disappointment and overwhelm.

Knowing precisely how sucky we are can be frustrating—and trying to make art at the level of somebody you look up to is one of the fastest tracks towards frustration.

But, you need to break away from your shackles. The shackles of generalism.

Generalism prevents us from diving deep. It slows the progress of your art because there's too many generalities to learn.

Generalities allow us to stay confused, not knowing how things really are.

Generalities keep us from expressing things to our highest ability.

Generalism is learning to draw 10 different types of coats versus looking into the shape and specifics of the garmet lines.

Generalities is learning to draw 10 different characters but only being able to draw one iconic expression for each.

Specifics is learning all the different ways one hairstyle can be drawn. Flowing in the air while running, under water, or falling down a height.

Specifics is learning how one specific expression is drawn in various perspectives.

Specifics is learning the theories and patterns behind folds.

Specifics is learning to draw all the expressions for a specific character.

Specifics is learning to convey an emotion or mood with a drawing.

Specifics are everything, and they're everywhere. Skilled artists are good with specifics. They can convey many things, specifically, with their drawings.

Imitate the artists you pick. Copy them. When your knowledge is insufficient to draw from imagination, study the basics and the specifics of the subject matter. Use them as a compass to guide your practice of the specifics.

Speed shouldn't be trained for. Make sure you don't worry about it. I'm being serious. Speed comes from successfully drawing what is basically the same visual information many times over. Speed comes from confidence and experience, something that come from knowing what specifically you're doing. When it's ready to be drawn fast it will happen on its own, because the mind is just good at consolidating and optimizing memories like that.

If you don't know the specifics for the drawing, it doesn't matter how much practice you have with your sketching workflow, it will take longer to make a good drawing every single time.

What you become frustrated with, just get specific with it. Seriously. Most important thing you can do. Deep dive and get specific with it. Study it, understand it. Make it not a problem anymore.

If you're frustrated with something, chances are it's because it's showing up a lot in your drawings. Perfect. Get specific with it. It's the most high value activity you can do, because it means you'll naturally get repetition for what you learn. Don't get specific on something you're never going to draw again—this is the worst thing you can do, because you're going to forget it due to the lack of repetition.

So, please, get specific. Art isn't weightlifting, nor is it like exercise. You don't progress based off total reps or total time spent. You progress based off how many specific skills you've approached with the mindset of acquiring, of no longer being a problem. Total reps or time spent is only indirectly related to your progress.

Being specific is hard. It takes more effort. It's hard to plan and make it efficient. It's messy. But messy is good. Go be messy.



Offline suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1256 on: April 24, 2019, 06:30:57 PM »
Thanks for your superbly in depth critique Ryan, i really really appreciate it. And nice to see you around as always.

Sorry for any typos im on my phone.

Actually you saying its good to make your own mistakes and whatnot is partly why i dont like tutorials and how-to books and such like. It sort of ruins the fun, a little, of learning on my own. In that way im rather stubborn in my methods because they are my own, and im just enjoying the ride, but i do still try and take advice when i get it, im not going to ignore something just because i didnt think of it haha.

I do see a bunch of good artists on deviant art and think i wish i could draw like them, but i never thought to pick a few of my favourites and immerse myself in their style. I do occasionally copy individual pieces from manga pages but i havent really gotten into proper copying styles, other than trying Devolas style a while back. Ill see how that works out for me.

Regarding pressure sensitivity and my current sketch style as well as what you aaid about resolving sketches, i split the creative aspect of my art to a separate thing on its own and am practicing that on my old unfinished drawings at the moment. I plan to resolve the details in a more uniform lineart style, so thats on the agenda. Im only doing so many sketches at this time to finish up my pile of old art to clear my mental baggage (thats what it is, really) on the whole thing. I found that when doing just one level of iteration helpes me to focus on the problems and how to improve, otherwise it feels like im focusing on too much.

As for not moving on to the next drawing until one is completed, that is the exact opposite of my current workflow, which works on several images but all at the same stage of completion. Since switching to working in bulk like this i have been able to increase my output with minimal stress. I found that when drawing i was stressing over producing a whole drawing from scratch and ended up doing very generic characters and outfits. But i feel i can be more adventurous when im only sketching, and i add details and resolve the next time round. I think in this regard i wont change although i do see myself returning to working on one image at a time eventually.

For generics and specifics, i can see the difference you are pointing out, like knowing something will happen as opposed to knowing why it happens. I do hit this hurdle a lot, like knowing how cothes will fold in a certain pose. Definitly need to focus on specifics then.

Funny i was recently thinking to myself, maybe i should just work on one style rather than jumping all around the place, so i definitly should be doing that. I kust keep getting stuck on tangents and whatever style i feel like on the day haha. Gotta be a bit more focused

Now that you say it, it does sound rather strange to be trying to improve speed haha. Never noticed that before. I think the trouble is that when im not trying to draw within time constraints, i draw way slower for no reason and my drawing doesnt improve any more. Also i daydream way more because theres no pressure. So the speed thing helps me keep on track and focused. But I dont try and draw faster than i can actually draw , to get what i want without making mistakes, just remove the unwanted pauses and wasted time. So the time/speed both is and isnt important in that respect.

I sort of get the feeling im just justifying why im not doing the things youre telling me, but i totally get what youre trying to say. Ill try and see what i can add to my schedule, although last week i wrote up a plan of what i was gojng to do for the next few months haha. Resolving sketches was one of them (i call it cleaning but i might steal that cool word) because as you say, its not a finished piece or anything at all. Ive got some hand studies and figure studies planned too. Im lacking in my poses and angles that im comfident drawing, along with expressions (ill take into account drawing them at different angles as well now)

Doing the 1000x copy/draw regimes have helped for the 2 areas that i have done it in, and i certainly plan on doing more, and i suppose thats a focused study of sorts. Not too sure how well it relates to genercs or specifics, but i sort of understand the subject a little better afterwards.

I will do my best to be messy :P
Thanks again :)
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Offline Ryan

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1257 on: April 26, 2019, 09:56:31 PM »
Thanks for your superbly in depth critique Ryan, i really really appreciate it. And nice to see you around as always.

Sorry for any typos im on my phone.

Actually you saying its good to make your own mistakes and whatnot is partly why i dont like tutorials and how-to books and such like. It sort of ruins the fun, a little, of learning on my own. In that way im rather stubborn in my methods because they are my own, and im just enjoying the ride, but i do still try and take advice when i get it, im not going to ignore something just because i didnt think of it haha.

I do see a bunch of good artists on deviant art and think i wish i could draw like them, but i never thought to pick a few of my favourites and immerse myself in their style. I do occasionally copy individual pieces from manga pages but i havent really gotten into proper copying styles, other than trying Devolas style a while back. Ill see how that works out for me.

Regarding pressure sensitivity and my current sketch style as well as what you aaid about resolving sketches, i split the creative aspect of my art to a separate thing on its own and am practicing that on my old unfinished drawings at the moment. I plan to resolve the details in a more uniform lineart style, so thats on the agenda. Im only doing so many sketches at this time to finish up my pile of old art to clear my mental baggage (thats what it is, really) on the whole thing. I found that when doing just one level of iteration helpes me to focus on the problems and how to improve, otherwise it feels like im focusing on too much.

As for not moving on to the next drawing until one is completed, that is the exact opposite of my current workflow, which works on several images but all at the same stage of completion. Since switching to working in bulk like this i have been able to increase my output with minimal stress. I found that when drawing i was stressing over producing a whole drawing from scratch and ended up doing very generic characters and outfits. But i feel i can be more adventurous when im only sketching, and i add details and resolve the next time round. I think in this regard i wont change although i do see myself returning to working on one image at a time eventually.

For generics and specifics, i can see the difference you are pointing out, like knowing something will happen as opposed to knowing why it happens. I do hit this hurdle a lot, like knowing how cothes will fold in a certain pose. Definitly need to focus on specifics then.

Funny i was recently thinking to myself, maybe i should just work on one style rather than jumping all around the place, so i definitly should be doing that. I kust keep getting stuck on tangents and whatever style i feel like on the day haha. Gotta be a bit more focused

Now that you say it, it does sound rather strange to be trying to improve speed haha. Never noticed that before. I think the trouble is that when im not trying to draw within time constraints, i draw way slower for no reason and my drawing doesnt improve any more. Also i daydream way more because theres no pressure. So the speed thing helps me keep on track and focused. But I dont try and draw faster than i can actually draw , to get what i want without making mistakes, just remove the unwanted pauses and wasted time. So the time/speed both is and isnt important in that respect.

I sort of get the feeling im just justifying why im not doing the things youre telling me, but i totally get what youre trying to say. Ill try and see what i can add to my schedule, although last week i wrote up a plan of what i was gojng to do for the next few months haha. Resolving sketches was one of them (i call it cleaning but i might steal that cool word) because as you say, its not a finished piece or anything at all. Ive got some hand studies and figure studies planned too. Im lacking in my poses and angles that im comfident drawing, along with expressions (ill take into account drawing them at different angles as well now)

Doing the 1000x copy/draw regimes have helped for the 2 areas that i have done it in, and i certainly plan on doing more, and i suppose thats a focused study of sorts. Not too sure how well it relates to genercs or specifics, but i sort of understand the subject a little better afterwards.

I will do my best to be messy :P
Thanks again :)

Tutorials and how-to books have their place, namely in opening up your perspective or presenting subject matter in a way that is more easily understood. I think it's still learning on your own really because making the information and refinements to your skill stick for the long-term always takes effort on behalf of the artist.

I'm a big fan of a process that dives deep, which I'm pretty sure you can already tell. Some things you can only notice and appreciate after staying with it for extended periods of time.

Interesting about drawing multiple things at once, too. This works as well. I should clarify that my main concern was more about not letting something disappear into the trashpile unresolved. If you re-order the steps in time so that the resolution is more disconnected in terms of time, this is still fine.

Timing yourself will be okay as long as you're not trying to draw faster than you're capable of. The main point is for you to understand that except for the elite of the elite artists, training speed by drawing fast just doesn't work.

Resolving sketches is definitely a good way to think about it, as you said. There's less pressure than saying you're going to finish it.

When you think of resolving something, it puts you in a perspective where you're taking a look at your work and seeing what is missing at a basic level. A sketch that is resolved can be taken to a finished level easily if you wanted to do so. The same cannot be said for something that isn't resolved. In other words, a resolved sketch is a sketch that is ready to be taken to finish.

I still don't fully grasp how improvement in art is made. But. A lot of it is improving basic construction skill and developing the sense for basic forms. Trial and error, focus, trying to see more deeply than you did yesterday. It's important to isolate elements to focus on them, but also important to focus on doing everything all at once. And of course, doing your best to correct errors in your drawings and draw closer to your ideal.

Feedback is necessary in order to judge what you're doing. Having artists you imitate or look up to gives you a reliable form of feedback. It's probably one of the most direct forms of feedback you can have. When compared to drawing with photographic reference, if you're drawing in a stylized fashion there is a level of processing you have to do to judge your work. When you're working towards an ideal that is already stylized, the processing to see the differences is at a minimum.

Good luck with your stuff, as always.

Offline suuper-san

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1258 on: April 29, 2019, 05:28:51 PM »
Quote
I still don't fully grasp how improvement in art is made
Amen to that!
I think it's a lot to do with memory/recall and correct imagination.

yeah my sketches at the moment are more annotations/ideas than sketches. I even write descriptions on stuff because it's not worth drawing it or its too difficult in the base sketch.

a resolved sketch for me is like a messy lineart, everything is there but it's not neat. You don't want to be guessing when it comes to inking.
I don't know if I can get from these style of sketches to a fully resolved one in one step but we'll see.

been having a bad week with a chest infection. I think I've just made it into the clear. Hardly done any art this week at all, or anything at all for that matter. I don't feel very creative or energetic at all.

276 WIPs remaining. decided against adding backgrounds since I'm slightly confident I can add a random background on the whim now, and I'll work on improving backgrounds separately now. Also helps me get through them faster.
still can't draw shoes. need to copy some.

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Offline Walter B

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Re: Suuper's manga (+digital and 3D)
« Reply #1259 on: April 30, 2019, 03:03:41 PM »
I love the first one!!  ;D

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