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Author Topic: How can you say it’s bad?  (Read 254 times)

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Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: How can you say it’s bad?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2017, 09:48:26 PM »
@50 Words of Paipis & Mahluaandmilk       Yeah, I also didn’t get laid in college and annoy people at parties.


The point though was that there are no standards to writing no matter what people say. Twilight sucks, hunger games suck, dragon ball sucks, Shakespeare sucks (who gets the reference), but eventually they are still part of the cultural consciousness.
oh yeah well i dont even really go to parties much so jokes on u

I %100 agree that art is subjective, but I hesitate to give something extra points for being famous. Those things might obviously be historically important and influential, and you're not totally wrong in acknowledging that, but I think that also should not necessarily equate to quality in one's individual assessment. I see no problem with saying DBZ is bad provided the subtext is that it's their subjective opinion. Because this subtext is law in the music world, I forget that people don't always think that way about storytelling.

Offline dmasterxd

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Re: How can you say it’s bad?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2017, 12:41:52 AM »
Yes you learn what qualifies as good writing from classes, books, lessons, etc. But more than anything you learn from observation, which is where all of the previous things mentioned learned from themselves.

It's easy to say how DBZ (DBZ specifically, I can't say anything about OG Dragon Ball or Super) is bad because it doesn't even get the basics right. Goku for starters, what exactly is his goal? What drives him to move the story forward? Nothing does, because he doesn't have one. Now if he had one in Dragon Ball, that's all good. However, it's meaningless in DBZ because if his goal in the original series was to be a World Martial Arts champion or something, he's clearly already achieved it by the time of Z. His goal can't be to look after his family considering Chichi, Krilin and even Piccolo did that more than he ever did. He has no drive and the only reason the story progresses is because the author realizes it needs to, but it's never a result of Goku trying to achieve something be it physical, mental, or emotional. Look at Nabari no Ou for example, Miharu wants to help Yoiteerase himself from existence even though he wasn't supposed to ever let anyone use the Shinrabanshou. His decision to do this set the primary conflict for the story in motion by splitting up two different factions into multiple individual ones. He had a goal, and he was driven to achieve it causing multiple different antagonists to get in his way. Having a main character with a clear goal is the first basic step to good writing.

And that's just one of many problems...People talk about how it set the standard for all battle shounen anime, and even though that's not exactly true it definitely made those standards known. Problem is those standards it uses aren't even good ones. Such as the all-powerful undefeatable MC who all the other character bask in awe at. And thus end up getting shafted as a result while the hero does all the hard work. Good writing would be at the very least giving them some sort of purpose to the story. All of the prominent characters should have a fully fleshed out character arc.

Yes, there is a certain standard to distinguish good and bad writingn just like with anything else. To put it into perspective, you can't play a guitar well when it's out of tune, it's just bad music at that point. It's the same prospect here. Just to make it even more clear:

"I were not ready too go two the park butt I decided no body want me at home either so I went any way?"

Asking what makes something bad is like asking what makes the above sentence bad. Everything has hard and fast rules about how to do it properly. Writing is no different.

As for the money argument, no one seems to have any problems calling SAO bad despite being finally successful as well.  Nostalgia is a reason for why it was so popular in the first place. Look at Pokemon, which is in the same vein (except Ash at least had a goal). Diamond and Pearl was actually the best-written part of that show. It gave Ash a very clear and ideological goal with wanting Paul to accept his style of training as he actually grew as a person and then learned to accept Paul's style of training as well. Every step he took to achieve that goal allowed him to move forward through his story until he ultimately achieved what he set out for. It also gave development to not only it's main characters, but also supporting cast giving each of them their own personal goals and character arcs as well. Yet this series wasn't nearly as finally successful as others. Money does not determine what constitutes as good writing.

Perhaps, Dragon Ball was genuinely good and so everyone who watched that back when it came out wanted to share the sequel series with their kids and get them into it. It's something I'm sure a lot of fathers and sons watched with each other as I know I did with my dad. And then they started selling DZ merchandise, raked in cash from all of that as well. Having all of that is why and how DBZ became so successful in the first place.

Also I never called it trash in my post, just bad from a writing perspective because it is. And that was the topic of discussion.


"You don't die for your friends. You live for them!"-Erza Scarlet (Fairy Tail)

Offline KeanFox

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Re: How can you say it’s bad?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2017, 08:32:49 AM »

Guko has no goals which are a big no-no in writing. I think DBZ Goku is a simpleton who lives for the thrill of fighting. It's the only thing he good at. For a battle shounen it worked great.

I think stuff like DB super, Star wars, ffvii remake is probably nostalgia. I can't fault people for enjoying them.

Let's not dismiss all critic as personal taste/subjective or be quick to call a show bad and miss the good parts.

Love your favorite show for the good and bad. nothing is perfect.

Offline 50 Words for Paipis

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Re: How can you say it’s bad?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2017, 09:28:28 AM »
How is saying aesthetic opinions are subjective dismissive?

And why do we have "hard and fast rules" for writing?

Also, if Fairy Tail was your example of classically good writing I have to ask what rules you're even operating by.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 09:34:45 AM by 50 Words for Paipis »

Offline Fronomenal

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Re: How can you say it’s bad?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 11:37:07 PM »
You have to remember that this is purely a subjective world we live in and that topics like this can never have a definite answer to them because ideas and beliefs held by us humans change over time.

From a technical standpoint, Good writing doesn't have a universal standard. Writing is an art and art of any form is subjective in it's nature. However, much like everything else in this world that came in contact with a philosopher with abnormal ideas that no one has ever thought of before, a standard was placed on it. And one's standards is one hundred percent biased, always. But keep in mind that these biases change over time. So of course, as time evolved peoples standard of good writing evolved right along with it.

That's why a lot of legacy shows like Dbz are getting called trash now because a lot of those people who watched it when they were kids had no idea what good story telling looked like. But as time passed, those same people were eventually were exposed to more examples of what they believed were stories with good storytelling and inevitably, with their newfound perspective of what good writing looks and feels like, compared these stories with that of shows like DBZ and realized they weren't as good as they once believed them to be.

Discussion like these will never end man. It's better to agree to disagree and move on. People have their own beliefs of what good is to them and no standard of anything will ever change that.

But on another note...


Also, if Fairy Tail was your example of classically good writing I have to ask what rules you're even operating by.

I'm with Paipis on this one homie. You gonna have to explain this one to me. Seeing fairytail characters beating their enemies with the literal power of friendship trope left a bad taste in my mouth, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not trashing it by any means but them fairytail characters from what I've seen are something else, boy I'll tell ya.