Risks of being a Mangaka + I hate the Bakuman effect.

[MK]

I stopped calling my stuff manga a while ago but the reason I use the word manga is because other people want to create manga and I don't want to take away from that or get in an arguement.  I like to call my stories webcomics drawn in a manga style.

There have been non-Japanese mangas though, and I mean they went to Japan and published in Japanese.  It's not common but there are a few of them out there.

[50 Words for Paipis]

There have been non-Japanese mangas though, and I mean they went to Japan and published in Japanese.  It's not common but there are a few of them out there.

I wouldn't consider those non-Japanese exactly, as they've moved and become citizens of Japan and are participating in the Japanese industry.

[KeanFox]

On the don't do it while in school. What is the ideal time to start? First school then comes college, then a job. A kid and wife maybe. Doing this type of stuff you got to give out something. Personal time, time with family and friends. video games.
If you in school take care of your grades. And if you have some free time to write and draw go for it.
I got to go eat.

[MisterSherbetLemon]

I think it's a matter of your own personality. As a creator you need to be willing to deal with criticism whether it's constructive or not because there are people in the world that will just give abuse in the form of "constructive criticism."

On a forum like this for aspiring artists and writers, I don't condone that kind of behavior towards others. I think this should be a positive environment for anyone who wants to share their work and improve themselves but I also recognize the significance of that criticism in a creator's journey to success.

If they can't handle harsh criticism at this early stage then they'll have a very hard time should their work ever reach a larger audience. Harsh criticism and the outright trolls are never pleasant or welcome but they aren't going away anytime soon and the larger you get, the more of them you'll have to deal with.

You have to have thick skin and an open mind if you wish to maintain your zeal and continue to develop your skills in this industry (in all industries actually). This is typically a forum for creators who aren't established and I think they should have the supportive environment to help them develop into true pros.

However, anyone who gets that far will someday have to deal with a much worse kind of critic than anything you can find on here. If they're not prepared to deal with that and soldier through it for those who actually enjoy their work, their success will be very short-lived.

Raw creativity isn't enough on it's own, you need to have a passion strong enough to overcome criticism and learn from the criticism that's relevant if you want this as a career.

There have been non-Japanese mangas though, and I mean they went to Japan and published in Japanese.  It's not common but there are a few of them out there.

I wouldn't consider those non-Japanese exactly, as they've moved and become citizens of Japan and are participating in the Japanese industry.

It's fair enough to say that manga is usually kept as a strictly Japanese thing due to the overwhelming popularity of it there but manga's been getting made around Europe and other parts of the world since the 70s and it's constantly growing into something more global.

Who knows whether or not it'll be our generation that begin making manga outside of Asia that is loved by Asia but it's inevitable that it will happen.

Look at Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir made in France. It's CGI but has obvious anime influences and Korea in particular loves it! Examples like this will just keep coming in multiple forms.

[7wings7]

Woohoo! I started the war. Well, not really my intentions but I did.

Let's start. I understand that it's good to start early, but I'm talking like primary. When I was in grade 6 I had kids in my class trying to make manga. Unforunately for them, they could never figure out a story. If they had a series in grade 6 it would probably be too much stress on them, because in primary school you are learning a whole lot of new stuff, so they'd have to remember all that, do homework, eat and sleep properly and work on the manga. I think that would be hard.

I will admit though that I am rarely ever impressed by an idea in the manga artists wanted section. 95% of the story ideas advertised seem pretty bland and cliche. But we can't judge a book by its cover. Even simple ideas can be made into amazing stories with proper execution and good writing ability...

I agree. A lot of the time you can notice cliche and ideas used from other manga, as a last resort when they don't know what to do next. Also, people posting their ideas on this forum should run it through a grammar checker. It's hard to read "hi guyss tihs si my storie".

Let me just say that as an artist, most stories don't really interest me and I'd rather draw my own story rather than work on someone else's.  Is their story better than mine?  Yea, some are but do they interest me so much that I want to draw it for them?  No, I'd rather tell the person to draw their own story because with hardwork they can eventually become good enough to be published.

Yep. It's even worse as a writer, once you settle on an idea, everything else just seems so bland. You notice the cliches more, the borrowed ideas, just everything wrong with it. Well, I suppose you just gotta have pride in your work.

Wings, you poor, frustrated soul. I wonder what you've had to deal with 

Well, there's a problem with wanting people to only submit stories worthy of being published. Because some of them already think that they're worthy of being published. That's the root of the problem. Ah well, what a universal problem. The world is filled with over-confident people.

Haha, don't mind me. Just that guy that rants.
I understand that people believe in their work, but some (not many, but some) are overconfident to the point where they can't accept any critism. Maybe it's just in other forums, but the amount of them is less on here.

Also, the main purpose of this thread was to mention some topics, so any younger aspiring mangaka could be informed before it happens. I'm sorry to everyone if I came off as discouraging.

Bakuman heavily romanticizes the life of a mangaka, I feel, or that of any professional artist. Sometimes what you put in doesn't return back on you, and some people have never made it even putting their life's blood and savings into pursuing this. They had potential, work ethic, and good ideas too. That's just how the system works sometimes. And yet, there's this thing, especially about kids and young adults, I'm talking about ranging ages like, from tweens to early twenties, where they think they're invincible and failure isn't going to ruin them. That's because at those ages, people can rebound and still make a comeback. As people get older, it gets harder to do so.Their current state kind of blinds them from feeling how the future will be, and then you get the situation of the poor kid turning like twenty-seven and realizing that he might not make it, getting terrified, and then scrambling to do something else with their life. Nobody wants to be that guy, but then again, nobody wants to be the guy who put in everything and never saw a dime in return.

I like the people who put their life into their work. It's inspiring. But there's some who just think they can submit it to a publisher and get accepted really easily, like in Bakuman. And I would understand them getting sad if they didn't get accepted, but it's just how it works. The world isn't fair, and it doesn't make everybody equal. Bad people can become the top of the world, yet the good people may still stay near the bottom.

I may as well reply to others later. Seeya.

[50 Words for Paipis]

There have been non-Japanese mangas though, and I mean they went to Japan and published in Japanese.  It's not common but there are a few of them out there.

I wouldn't consider those non-Japanese exactly, as they've moved and become citizens of Japan and are participating in the Japanese industry.

It's fair enough to say that manga is usually kept as a strictly Japanese thing due to the overwhelming popularity of it there but manga's been getting made around Europe and other parts of the world since the 70s and it's constantly growing into something more global.

I'd entreat you to read my first comment. Particularly theses parts:

If a Japanese manga-ka made a comic that was identical to the style of, say, Brian Bolland, it would still be considered manga in both Japan and America. If a Japanese manga-ka made a comic with stick figures it would be considered manga in both Japan and America. And, yet, the inconsistency is that some consider the works of Mark Crilley et al to be manga.

...if we keep to a consistent definition of "manga," a non-Japanese manga industry will never exist. "There are Chinese manga," you say. But there's another name for Chinese comics: "Manhua". "Manhwa" for Korea. Those are their own comic industries, more closely tied to that of Japan, to be certain, but distinct nonetheless. But what does exist in the West? The comic industry.

My point is not that non-Japanese comics influenced by the styles within manga don't exist, it's that, no matter how close it gets to the style of Bleach, it can't be manga, because "manga" only really refers to the region in which it was made.

[MaidenManga]

Don't get your titties in a twist. That's been a well-documented and amply confronted problem on here.

Here's the main problem: manga are just Japanese comics. Sure, there is an identifiable style to many of the mainstream manga, but several of them break from that. If a Japanese manga-ka made a comic that was identical to the style of, say, Brian Bolland, it would still be considered manga in both Japan and America. If a Japanese manga-ka made a comic with stick figures it would be considered manga in both Japan and America. And, yet, the inconsistency is that some consider the works of Mark Crilley et al to be manga.

Because of the desire to create what they think is manga, many imitate Bleach, Naruto, One Piece etc. only providing subtle differences (their "style"), but the reading public can't help but feel their work is cheap. Not that work didn't go into it, but, even if it were close to being as well put together a product as those, and it usually isn't, it still feels like an imitation, an attempt to make a bed in an industry that will never flourish, after which they will simply resume their tenure at the checkout counter of GameStop.

But here's the thing: if we keep to a consistent definition of "manga," a non-Japanese manga industry will never exist. "There are Chinese manga," you say. But there's another name for Chinese comics: "Manhua". "Manhwa" for Korean. Those are their own comic industries, more closely tied to that of Japan, to be certain, but distinct nonetheless. But what does exist in the West? The comic industry.

Even were I to concede that manga's common-and-therefore-rightful definition as a style, it's still not the medium, you see. What I'm trying to drive home is that if you want to make this thing, this visual storytelling medium, your career, then you are a creator of comics.

And, as such, isn't it strange that you're focusing on one country's tradition (most often just a fraction of it)? In every other medium– music, film, poetry, visual arts, etc.– artists see it as a necessity to experience and study a wide variety of forms, genres, sub-genres, even regional styles, in order to find and, from there, evolve their own creative voice, as well as become more adept with their tools. And yet, at best, most Westerners intending to be manga-ka simply incorporate D.C. and Marvel as influences, if anything. There are whole other traditions of comic making that we are ignoring here. Why are we not exploring the political cartoons of Honoré Daumier, the experimental comics of Scott McCloud? Not to mention other forms of storytelling, such as films, novels, short stories, plays, story poems and exploring those fully (I mean reading more than young adult fiction or sci-fi or fantasy, as some are apt not to do, which have works of legitimate quality but are not the only thing on the menu).

I'm not expecting anybody to be an expert in these things or to like all of these things and it may take some time getting used to some styles. But it's not the destination that's the goal; it's the journey. Just to have fun being an artist. Treat the entirety of Art as your playground. Find your own voice as a comic maker and an artist. You are in the same realm as manga-ka, you just call it different things and the realm is bigger and more inclusive than you think. Make it a goal to explore every inch of it and enjoy the sights and smells along the way.

This.

This is brilliant, one best comment I think I've ever seen on the topic, period.
Learned a lot from this, reminded me what it was to participate in making COMICS, and not manga.
Inspiration is okay, but that's what it must remain - to stray away from being carbon copies.

Thank you, Paipis

[MisterSherbetLemon]

Ah I see your point. Fair play.

I just refer to what we do here as manga because of it's influence (and, ya know, the fact we're on a forum for writers and artists called mangaraiders :P) it's really just personal habit rather than trying to define it.

I write stuff that I want turned into visual stuff with a similar style to what the Japan peeps do. Call it what you will haha. 

EDIT: Didn't this start as a chat on constructive criticism? Or was it something else before that? I forget xD

[Suuper-san]

and suddenly i am writing a comic, not a manga :P
although i have been thinking similar myself i feel weird calling it a manga since it physically by definition cannot be one.

if you work hard you can find time anywhere, i mean i drew (still do btw)  in my lunch breaks at school and college, so you can add 5 hours a week back into your manga-routine, making 20 hours a month extra. thats enough time to do a whole draft if not more.

and a monthly 10 page comic is not to be sniffed at for a schoolkid if they are serious. apparently there is a kid in my school who is making a stick figure comic and selling it 10p a copy, although i have yet to verify that.

to be honest, i have not seen bakuman past the first episode, because it keeps reminding me to get focused and do my own manga, not watch other people doing theirs, so i dont know how easy they make it look, but yes people should realize it takes an insane amount of time and effort to get good at something

i think generally on this forum people give and take criticism nicely. of course there are some people who either give or receive it badly, but i could name them on less than a hand. and if someone thinks theyre the next japanese mangaka, then thats a great mindset, but if it gets in the way of them becoming it because they are overconfident, then it becomes a pain.

[50 Words for Paipis]

Ah I see your point. Fair play.

I just refer to what we do here as manga because of it's influence (and, ya know, the fact we're on a forum for writers and artists called mangaraiders :P) it's really just personal habit rather than trying to define it.

I write stuff that I want turned into visual stuff with a similar style to what the Japan peeps do. Call it what you will haha. 

EDIT: Didn't this start as a chat on constructive criticism? Or was it something else before that? I forget xD

Yeah, it's not some cardinal sin to use "manga" to refer to the dominant styles of manga. I just think that those that restrict what they do to "manga" such that they avoid other types of comics (except superhero comics usually) dig their own professional grave, if they are intending to be the "biggest mangaka since Kubo." Western attempts at manga often feel cheap, and Western attempts to mix manga styles and Western superhero comics aren't much better. Japanese influence is perfectly fine, but, if you dream of being a successful comics creator, you'd do well to diversify/experiment with other styles until you find your own creative voice, which is more satisfying anyway, and you'll then be able to more effectively brand and market what you do (and it will also be more likely to catch on in general). In Japan, the manga market is healthy enough that a derivative artist can sky rocket to success, but that's not necessarily the case here. There's no demand for a Western comic that's just like One Piece.

[7wings7]

I didn't think so many people would bother posting their opinions on some random dudes post.

I would like a chance to reword my original post, to make it more truthful.

I don't think you can become a mangaka in school. I know there's lunch breaks and weekends and holidays but, it's too much stress. School and life and manga all together could get hard. Don't give up though and prove this guy wrong.

The Bakuman effect is a terrible thing that happens to people after reading it. It fills them with determination. But, it's too much determination.
Yeah, they face some problems along the way like annoying editor, Mashiro being hospitalized but it makes the process of making manga sound easier than it is. Most people won't get praise on their first work, but they did. When I said about people not accepting critism, I didn't mean everybody. I've met a quite a few people (poor souls infected with B-Effect) who wouldn't accept "rude" questions, despite the fact they were just asking for more information and for them to reformat their thread.

I already regret making my post xD Please don't take anything the wrong way and stay determined and… other stuff.

Seeya ?¬?

[MK]

It's a friendly discussion, nothing to regret posting.

In Japan you really wouldn't become a mangaka while in school but instead you would go to a manga school (trade school) to get the skills.  Mangakas can start out several ways: being assistants to other mangas, submitting a good one shot, showing their storyboards to an editor several times or even as doujinshi atists

[Manimal]

I think of this in simple terms, everyone has their fun stupid youthful dreams, let them have their fun stupid youthful dreams I say.

For the Bakuman effect, it's the same deal right. Some people just want to have their fun fantasies, it doesn't bother me because I'm not them. I have my fun "Thunder Road" fantasies. Bakuman is an excellent manga, it's meant to inspire you, not teach you how to become a cartoonist. It was great for me, when I started reading it my comics began to look so much better and I put way more into them, thanks to reading the story and seeing things I hadn't been doing like storyboards. It's just a fun tale. For a more true look at an artist one should watch the J Drama Blue Blazes. The main character barely does anything, gets motivated for 2 seconds then stops, and makes excuses why he's better then others even though he doesn't put the work in that the better people do. It's a great show that is so relatable, which makes you go 'damn, I shouldn't relate to this, I gotta pick it up".

Also you can totally make comics in school. 80% of my whole school career I was drawing in class, the majority of teachers even encouraged me to do so. As for my grades, well I didn't fail any classes.

So my point is simple, this doesn't bother me because in time someone who's like "I love Bakuman I can do this easy" will get over it and realise how much work needs to be put in to do these things. Then they will either power through it or move along. 

Also Pipe is right, manga is just Japanese comics as anime are Japanese cartoons. An America making manga inspired stuff is still comics. It's as simple as that. But if you want to call it manga, I don't care. It doesn't affect my life.

[Suuper-san]

80% of my whole school career I was drawing in class

ahhh yeah i forgot i did that as well, the teachers hated me for it :P

at the end of the day, the original post is aimed to help people who are overconfident or believe an anime to be the truth on a subject, which ironically are the ones who will probably completely ignore this advice because they dont believe it.

[Philosotaku]

at the end of the day, the original post is aimed to help people who are overconfident or believe an anime to be the truth on a subject, which ironically are the ones who will probably completely ignore this advice because they dont believe it.

On the overconfidence bit it's the classic Dunning-Kruger effect. The basic point being that people lack the ability to recognize they aren't good at something literally because they aren't good at it. It makes me wonder if there is a heuristic or methodology for figuring out if you're actually good at something. I mean the people who are good anything think it's obvious just from looking at the work itself but why? Obviously if some people don't understand that their work is poor just from looking at their own work there's something else that allows a person to know if their work is good.

Perhaps they don't understand the skill cap and where they are relative to it? I dunno.