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Author Topic: I might be overthinking this, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.  (Read 4540 times)

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Offline Lumaria

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Re: I might be overthinking this, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2015, 12:57:54 AM »
All right I'm working on a Battle Shonen manga, which has caused me to run into a problem:"The supportive female character..."

It seems that in Bleach, Naruto, One-Piece, and Fairy Tail, female characters are either useless, provide sexual fan service or in the case of Lucy whom I greatly despise, she's both useless and provides sexual fan service.

And with that I must come clean with something, before I say anymore. I'm merely creating a free to read series for a sub section of anime fans I hate and believe have no right to live. My sole objective in appealing to these nimrods is to further my career, hence my problem. The female character in the series I'm working on I feel needs to be more than a piece of sexual fan service that needs to be saved every episode, because she's the catalyst that gets the main character, Jace to learn more about his draconic origins. Not only that, but there's the "romantic aspect." From what I've gauged immediate intimacy is expected between Jace and the female character, Sarah. To drag the build up to romance over several chapters as they get to know each other might be a turn off.

So what do you think? Should I pander to these people or stay the course and write Sarah how I see fit?

The supporting character is often the opposite sex of the main character. This happens with female leads as well. For example: CardCaptor Sakura has a male supportive character.

The purpose of the Supportive character is to feed information to the main character (and in turn, the Reader) naturally without forcing information. It also helps with introducing them naturally or in specific situations.  Bleach and Naruto i highly doubt they are portrayed as "sexy". Rukia is actually portrayed as a strong character. Sakura is portrayed as an annoying one.

One Piece, you got me there, although for a "crew", i dont think One piece was trying to make Nami specifically as the supportive character as everyone in Luffy's crew plays that role. HOWEVER, Fairy Tail fits with the supportive opposite sex character. Characters like Rukia are also designed to draw out more of the main character's personality or give them more reason to develop.

Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline DeAngelus

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Re: I might be overthinking this, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2015, 11:35:36 PM »
Aside from that, I can't help but remember a certain article I read some days ago...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/fifty-shades-grey-author-el-5972718

While it's easy for me to bash the author for poor writing and such-and-such, I have to commend her for the huge financial success the story brought. I imagine some kind of scenario playing out as such:

Critic: This story promotes immoral character! This story is poorly written! I can't imagine why anyone would want to read such a repulsive, trashy novel.  :frown:

Author: I'm sorry. I can't hear you over the sound of HOW MUCH MONEY I'M MAKING!   $$$ :dance: $$$

People can hate a story or author as much as they like, but if it sells, who am I to complain?  :noidea:
So , you're okay with such bad practice used as a norm ?
PM me if you wanted a critique. It takes time for one to come to you, so please be patient.

If you wanted it to be public or private, do tell me.

Offline MK

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Re: I might be overthinking this, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2015, 03:19:51 AM »
You guys can stop posting on this thread, the person who started it hasn't been here for almost 2 weeks XD

Offline Tora_KeybladeMaster

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Re: I might be overthinking this, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2015, 08:44:48 AM »
I'm normally one to ramble out rather long messages on my opinions and try to be as helpful as possible when posting them,

but your current ideology offends me as a writer. What you're basically saying is that you want to write something to become the kind of anime you hate but the people you disapprove of will love.

You will NEVER gain a following with that attitude, those mainstream animes gained mass appeal because they were unique enough to stand out themselves. That attitude of yours is just going to hinder your potential to produce anything of that quality which I have no doubt is there and ready to be used.

I sympathize with your position but writing is not a job people turn to in times of desperation. If you've been unemployed for so long, get a job. There's always time to write if you make time and your skill as a writer will improve if you aren't working under quite so much financial pressure.

...

Huh, rambled a tiny bit that's not bad... :sure:

I'm not worried about the quality of my writing since this isn't the only project I'm working on or have completed. I've finished a self-published a short story and novelette, but trying to sell those has become a pain in the neck.

And since you're aware that I'm under financial pressure, you must understand I need immediate result not a bi-weekly payment. And praying on these impressionable idiots will get me those results. I'm sorry that my methods offend you, they offend me too, but writing is my passion and reality is a harsh mistress, and I have to repay in kind. That is what business men do after all.

Think of the things you have... Right now it sounds you have your entire manga planned out and it just starts off a bit slow.  Hopefully you already have the idea on what the characters look like and probably done much of the designing already with maybe some slight alterations that can be added

You have shot down pretty much everyone who said fanservice is the author's opinion, etc.  Well you might as well have just gone with the fanservice and started drawing.

Think about it this way...  You are simply drawing bigger boobs (boobs were going to be there anyways unless you wanted a flat girl), and designing clothes a bit different to show more skin.  Your characters were already going to get together after a while so don't need to worry too much about pairing (and those close calls are already going to be there).  And if you are thinking pantyshots... Don't go out of your way to draw them, only draw it if when it is convenient and you were going to draw the same angle anyways.

If this is your big story and really don't want it ruined then make another story to gain a fan base and come back to this one when more people read your manga.  As a writer coming up with a story should be simple.  Remember, having backup plans never really hurts

I hope you make a decision soon because everyday you are deciding between fanservice or no fanservice, the less time you have spent actually drawing your series (if you really can't decide just flip your lucky coin and guess heads or tails). I wish you good luck with whichever choice you have made

Interesting that you gave me this advice, because is what I did. The story of Sarah and Jace was heading a very character driven world building story, and I'm trying to write something "Simple and dumb." So I started another story titled "Crimson Daggers," and this one will be less elaborate as I'm making it up as I go.

And as much As I'd love to use Fan-service when it's convenient, please I've seen Highschool Of The Dead and Ikki Tousen, and as irritating as the fan service was in those anime serve as a template though I don't think I can bring myself to be that lowbrow...-_-

And you're right I should've just started drawing the moment I got an idea of what I had...

As much I hate fanservice, I intend to have some of it for my story (heck, even fanservice for the female audience), you just don't make it easy to notice. People are unique individulally, go for the majority to gain strong following. And for pairing-shipping, it has to have a strong reason and a unique connection between the male and female characters, try non-canon routes for each of the female characters if they have strong fan bases for each of them to show more of their background.

Trust me, I'd love to use fan service subtly... But I've interacted with these nimrods enough to know that if the blood riddled violence and sexual content isn't overt then it's not "mature." They've also shown me you have to do the same with romance... Just have the character hold hands, kiss, and say some sappy romantic crap, and they'll think it's the most romantic thing they've ever read... I wonder why these creatures are allowed to live...

It's actually really sad to see that fans need some kind of fan services such as that...it's always to emphasise the moto of "sex sells"...why don't these people try to understand that there is more to a girl than boobs...

In some sense, I think it's actually dangerous because it encourages the fans to think girls should be "stupid" or to become paedophil? (reference: picturing young girls as sexual fan services, in harems a small girl acting spoiled is cute but that's daddy and daughter scene and it's disturbing).

I wonder what the boys will think if every girls in the world were to only look at their physical built. Guess it's a bit also the same when it comes to the over way around but one always argue that it is just fantasy, but some people are weak minded and could be less able to separate fantasy and reality.

I can actually compromise in terms of fan services, but girls have "BRAIN"!

The answer to your first question is "These people are dumb as f*ck and they suck."

Well actually the truth is such anime fans are an impressionable lot, but that's what happens when parents don't raise their kids.

Gonna say that the female characters that you seem to have a problem with aren't that bad... They bring an element of 'skin' to the series yes, but they also bring a really strong platform for the character to develop away from being just the useless boobs and butts of the series. Lucy is a good example of this; 443 chapters into Fairy Tail she is much more of her own character than she used to be. Moreover they are all just one character in very large eclectic casts in a story that offer much more than just eye-candy and they don't really ever get in the way of the story. Could they be stronger, better written characters... yes... are they bad characters... no. Also consider the dynamic where all of the female cast were the strong female lead type... how the hell could you write that successfully!?

Also want to point out there are many variations on fan-service that extend further than just the sexualisation of characters. For instance, what Kishimoto did at the end of Naruto was fan-service and it pandered to nostalgia and shipping. Ecchi fanservice is a problem when it gets in the way of the storytelling or theconsumption of the story (i.e. History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi...), but otherwise it can be used to good effect to bring comedy or even some realism (in terms of relationships or depictions of stereotypes) to a story. Well formed womanly features can also provide strong imagery for the character being a strong female, with power over men... although I prefer characters like Koko from Jormungand who has a controlling personality. So don't discount it or it's fans... (also just because someone is a fan of ecchi doesn't mean they objectify women.)

I think some people have made very valid and well formed points on this thread, so I think you should consider their advice. I'm just gonna chip in by saying that getting angry over something really very menial such as ecchi fanservice is not a great sign. It's important to be open-minded and non-judgemental and just generally level headed so that you don't close yourself off from options and opportunities in writing. Being accepting and thinking critically about these kinds of thing - finding both faults AND MERITS in them - is an important step in maturing as a person.


Sorry, but unless I see Sakura, Orihime and Lucy's usefulness in action, I can only take your opinion with a grain of salt. Also writing every female in a cast as competent is easier than you think unless you don't watch My Little Pony:Friendship Is Magic, PowerPuff Girls, or Sailor Moon to name a few. The trick is to just give them differing personalities. Or heck Star Butterfly from Star Vs. The Forces Of Evil. If anything, Star proves that a female character can be as girly as they come and still be competent… Not every “strong female character” HAS to be like Erza, or Soi Fong... Some can be girly like Rarity, Pinkie-Pie, Star Butterfly, or Sailor-Moon. But the problem seems to be is:"femininity seems to equal weakness," which is a load of horse-apples.

Also you’re missing the point if you’re asking me to “think critically.” The point is I’m preying on an easy to please audience to get PAID so I can pay for college and support my family. This isn’t about artistic merit, it’s about survival.

So you're saying I should make Sara sexually attractive and competent? If that is what you were implying, here's what's sad, in my anger I didn't consider that. I've done it before in a novel I'm rewriting with a Nephilim(Angel/human hybrid, yes they do exist in Abrahamic mythos) named Lisa and the character Anna in the same story. I also managed this in another series I'm working on called Crusader Katie, where despite being sexualized the title character is a capable hero. However that was the point of Crusader Katie's creation, this is different.

This series is merely a cheap cash-in so I can end my unemployment streak, as such The way I see it, I have to pander to idiots, and while smarter readers might see my work, finding them is like finding a needle in a hay stack. At least on the internet anyway...

*snip*

Hence my dilemma, but I might end up utilizing DeAngelus's advice because it's the only way I can keep Sara competent and satiate the sexually frustrated portion of my audience...
First of all , I deeply apologize for not responding to you sooner . I got an emergency call from my senior to help replace his sudden lack of assistants for his work (I did cleaning & inking for him , digitally of course) .

No , no nonono ~ , I'm not saying that it's mandatory to do so , it's totally optional . If your character profile don't call for one , don't apply it . If your story isn't that of Queen's Blade or Love Hina , don't do it . It's your story , not theirs , if you don't want your story to be all 'tits & arse' , then let it not be . Fanservice (Ecchi especially) is purely optional & one isn't obliged to include it if their story is more on a serious tone as opposed to being ludicrous . They serve to be fillers , a form of break in-between all of those seriousness going on in the story the readers had to wade through . Without them , readers will get knocked out from mental exhaustion .

If your character do not exude traits that are link to sex appeal , don't force one on it . I mean , it's beyond logical if your character , who is one of a high-ranking holy knight who serves under a king of a holy kingdom , assigned to be the the capitol's guard captain , making her presence known to the residents by doing regular patrol around the capitol city wearing chainmail bikini & a loincloth with the kingdom's emblem on stapled right on to her thong , walking in a manner you see in Victoria's Secret Fashion show & seducing any man she came across during her patrol , right ? The only time this can happen is when your story is full-on fantasy & the above mentioned is the realization to a 'what if' question & you'd stick to such absurdity throughout the whole story .

If you're worried that these nimrods will not buy such bland-looking manga/comic , don't . As long there's female in them , as long as your story do catch & surfs that wave , they'll still re-imagine them in a perverted manner , hence fan-fictions (doujins) . Of course , the above is mentioned is highlighting perverts in general , there are also shipping fans , die-hard , deluded fangirls & fanboys , h8torZ & role-players .

Again , it is optional & it's up to you if you want to or not . Remember , fanservice/extras/fillers/eye-candies are just that , fanservice/extras/fillers/eye-candies . They serve as a form of break in-story & in no way it'll help improve the story itself but if used excessively , especially in a more serious-toned story & your story WILL suffer .

Oh I've always known the addition of fan service is optional, but you apparently haven't encountered these idiots I've droned on about... To them "sexual fan service equals maturity." They're that f'ing stupid, so I'mma treat them like the brain-dead sacks of $h!t that they are. Hell the anime industry's already doing that, I'm merely just playing along. At least this way, I can gain some exposure so I can start publishing the work I want to sell. I mean Hell, we've all gotta start somewhere right?

quote author=Lumaria link=topic=13759.msg234259#msg234259 date=1436590674]
All right I'm working on a Battle Shonen manga, which has caused me to run into a problem:"The supportive female character..."

It seems that in Bleach, Naruto, One-Piece, and Fairy Tail, female characters are either useless, provide sexual fan service or in the case of Lucy whom I greatly despise, she's both useless and provides sexual fan service.

And with that I must come clean with something, before I say anymore. I'm merely creating a free to read series for a sub section of anime fans I hate and believe have no right to live. My sole objective in appealing to these nimrods is to further my career, hence my problem. The female character in the series I'm working on I feel needs to be more than a piece of sexual fan service that needs to be saved every episode, because she's the catalyst that gets the main character, Jace to learn more about his draconic origins. Not only that, but there's the "romantic aspect." From what I've gauged immediate intimacy is expected between Jace and the female character, Sarah. To drag the build up to romance over several chapters as they get to know each other might be a turn off.

So what do you think? Should I pander to these people or stay the course and write Sarah how I see fit?

The supporting character is often the opposite sex of the main character. This happens with female leads as well. For example: CardCaptor Sakura has a male supportive character.

The purpose of the Supportive character is to feed information to the main character (and in turn, the Reader) naturally without forcing information. It also helps with introducing them naturally or in specific situations.  Bleach and Naruto i highly doubt they are portrayed as "sexy". Rukia is actually portrayed as a strong character. Sakura is portrayed as an annoying one.

One Piece, you got me there, although for a "crew", i dont think One piece was trying to make Nami specifically as the supportive character as everyone in Luffy's crew plays that role. HOWEVER, Fairy Tail fits with the supportive opposite sex character. Characters like Rukia are also designed to draw out more of the main character's personality or give them more reason to develop.
[/quote]

Maybe "supportive character" is the wrong word, well not really in this case. Plus you seem to be over looking the brain-dead horn dogs I'm looking to appeal to. But I get why, you people aren't bitter like I am.

You guys can stop posting on this thread, the person who started it hasn't been here for almost 2 weeks XD

Yeah sorry about that, I've been busy college, making videos for my three internet video sharing channels, trying to get a Voice cast for a trailer, and actually working on this abomination of a project... Just finish Crimson Daggers' script, now I'm working on the sequential art. :p I finally created something dumb enough for these wretched idiots.

Offline MisterSherbetLemon

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Re: I might be overthinking this, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2015, 01:41:20 PM »
Quote
I'm not worried about the quality of my writing since this isn't the only project I'm working on or have completed. I've finished a self-published a short story and novelette, but trying to sell those has become a pain in the neck.

And since you're aware that I'm under financial pressure, you must understand I need immediate result not a bi-weekly payment. And praying on these impressionable idiots will get me those results. I'm sorry that my methods offend you, they offend me too, but writing is my passion and reality is a harsh mistress, and I have to repay in kind. That is what business men do after all.

Bi-weekly or weekly income is possible, immediate is not no matter what you do. Even if you write something that panders to as many people as humanly possible in record time, it will take time for people to take notice, presuming that will be through word of mouth and local free or cheap advertising due to your financial issues? Also I may have missed somewhere in the posts but are you also an artist? Would love to see some illustrations or even excerpts of draft to see what progress you've made in the past few weeks during time that could've been spent earning some cash part time to support yourself? If not, do you have an artist at the ready to help you with this project and if not how and when do you intend to find one?

I realize that I may come across as somewhat aggressive and I don't intend it as a personal thing on you but reading this, you do not come across as a business man with a plan. As I was reading through your posts on this thread I actually wondered if you were trolling at one point because the reality is that you do not sound like you have any idea how much time it could take to make some real income from this line of work when starting off. To claim that it will be faster than working a part or full time job to help tide you over makes about as much sense to me as two bald guys fighting over a hairbrush. I can't tell if that's because you don't understand the industry or if you just don't want to get a job.

It's not your methods that offend me so much as your mentality. You underestimate the writing process and you clearly underestimate successful writers if you think that's all it takes to get there.