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What is the main issue with the story?

Too boring!!...Zzzzzzz
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Author Topic: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board  (Read 4891 times)

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Offline Aozora

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Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« on: January 21, 2015, 08:50:01 PM »
PLEASE LEAVE ALL COMMENTS, FEEDBACK, REVIEWS, AND DISCUSSION ON HIKARU RISING HERE

« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 12:29:44 AM by God Usopp »
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Check out my stories here: http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php?topic=12492.msg213349#msg213349

Offline Aozora

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2015, 12:05:37 AM »
@CptCog:

From one captain to another, thank you for the review!

Chapter 1:
- Are you referring to the jump back in the beginning when I talk about why Hikaru was banished or the jump back in the end when I'm about to go into Hikaru's flashback? I can see how you're saying the jump back in the beginning is kind of out of place and unrelated because it suddenly leaps from talking about angels to some random village. But I thought the flashback at the end was gradually built up to.

- Hikaru does seem like a flat character in this chapter and it's hard to tell that he is the center of it because a lot of different elements were at play. But the reason I portrayed him so obscurely is because I wanted the reader to wonder, "Okay why is this guy so fixated on hunting demons? What could have led him to take this path?" I was trying to get readers to want to know more about Hikaru. I'll try to create that mood better.

- Bura (the demon villain) was supposed to be a very insignificant, fodder type character; that's why I took some liberty in making him silly and comical. But actually, I am leaning towards more seinen with this story but there will be shounen elements thrown here and there.

Chapter 2:
- This is one thing almost everyone has pointed out and that I'm struggling with. Heian is indeed very important to not only Hikaru's development but also the plot as a whole. I'm thinking that maybe I'll split chapter 1 into two chapters in order to give Hikaru more focus and development.

- Dang it, CptCog! You revealed my subtle use of sexual innuendos! Wow, I had no idea bugger meant that. I'll change it when I can :push:

Chapter 3:
-Well, thank you! Glad you liked it. This chapter seems to be the favorite so far.
-Reading through my chapter again, I also realized that I disliked that line. I will change it.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Check out my stories here: http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php?topic=12492.msg213349#msg213349

Offline Lumaria

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 03:44:32 AM »
top three issues:

1.Ojii-san, Uwaaa, and other japanese terms aren't really necessary if you're going for a more medieval story. "gramps", "big brother", "mr/mrs" should be more than enough. "Oi" and "Uwaa" also bother me as i know their intended to give that Japanese feel. Most of the time, these terms are needed when making a Japanese-based manga, because there's more things that don't have an English translation.

2. You are quick to tell us the subtle things, it doesn't give me a long lasting impression. it feels rushed.

Here are examples of where you could've showed us something more, rather than telling us straight out:


The elderly man could feel an intimidating aura from the young man, yet he also felt oddly safe and comfortable in his presence. Perhaps, it was the young man’s eyes; there was something about his eyes that made him seem dependable and reliable. Without even realizing, the man controls his sweating and quivering.


Being descriptive doesn't really tell us everything, it only tells us the exterior. Showing us the interior is what you fail to do. You're not showing us the character's thoughts, their reactions. You just telling us. here's a good moment to see things from the Elderly man's point of view, what he was seeing, what he was feeling. (but i particularly don't like this situation for reasons i will mention later)

As the line decreases, the elderly man gets increasingly closer to the front. He sees a brown-skinned official with spiky black hair, black eyes, and ear and nose piercings sitting in an opulent chair surrounded by about 20 soldiers and various offerings from the townspeople. Although he looks human, he is clearly not.

Being descriptive and adding a lot of adjectives, but again, quick to tell us that he is clearly not human. How is it clear that he's not human? Part of "showing" and "not telling" is knowing what you want to get across, and avoid telling us, and force yourself to find  a way to "show" it to us.

Overall, i don't find it necessary to even say that...the context of the story can reveal that he is "not human" with whats being revealed in later paragraphs.

The soldiers in reserve who hear the horn are startled. They were happily sitting in the storage area, enjoying some of the offerings that Bura agreed to share when the conch shell was blown.

Again...telling us...but in this situation, you kind of backed yourself up in a corner by making it so that they had to call for help in such a specific way. Also telling us, where their at such as the cellar and what Bura does for them...

3.Once again, i feel like you want us to like Hikaru for being such a bad-ass, not for being a strong character. Wanting to kill Demons along the way doesn't really give me any curiosity whatsoever in particular because the opening paragraphs already gives us an idea.

So far Hikaru is an unstoppable force, but at the same time, goes in and asks questions later.. has little words when he's done, but has plenty to say when he wants to sound like a big shot..i'm not one bit curious to what other side he has because this is all i see and nothing more. Having "Ardon" as a back up to reveal that he wasn't like this isn't enough. He gets "preechy" and at the same time, people seem to get an aura from him. Everything i saw in this chapter didn't show me a character, but someone who knows what to say to sound like the hero, knows how to kill, never fears for his life, and has a simple ideology....He's just not dynamic enough....in fact some things just contradict the other. too many good qualities that don't connect to make a good character.

It feels like he's getting multiple good/likable qualities, but each one should belong to a separate character.

4.The way CHapter 1 is organized already shows issues...It looks like its a prologue (giving us an impression of what we'll read on in the future) but it relies to much on the present to not go back at a previous point in time. Especially when it starts off saying "22 years later". i can already see chapter 2 is showing "3 years ago"...

Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline Aozora

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 04:17:25 PM »
Thanks for the review Lorenx! I really hope you read Chapter 3, as well, because you will finally see the flaws in Hikaru that you had been asking for  :thumbsup:

1. I might do this at the very end when I'm done writing all the chapters for this arc/season. I like adding in the trademark Japanese terms like "Oi"; I don't know...kind of makes me feel like a mangaka :push: but just a little.

2. When I write, there are certain scenes in my mind that I like to focus on or get to quickly. This causes me to neglect some important details and descriptions. I do get what you're saying about it feeling rushed. So I guess what you're saying is that instead of just talking about Hikaru's aura, I should show his aura through the elderly man's thoughts perhaps? Or do you have any other suggestions? Or for the soldiers in reserve, I should have a conversation showing how they're enjoying the offerings instead of just saying that they are, right? I think this is what you're telling me to do...

3. So it seems I am again painting Hikaru as a flawless character is what you're saying, or rather an uninteresting, bad ass character with many good qualities. I will not deny I tried to portray Hikaru as a bad ass in the first chapter, but not mainly because I wanted readers to like him. I would like readers to like the MC but that was not the main reason. The main reason was to contrast how Hikaru is in the present to how he was in the past, i.e. when he was still a lazy wuss on the farm. When readers see these two polar opposite Hikarus, they would want to know more about what caused Hikaru to get from point A (wussy) to point B (bad ass but with flaws that will be presented later)--or at least that is what I hoped would be the readers' reaction. I know I've already said this before Lorenx lol so I'm sorry to sound like a broken record. Hikaru may seem like some perfect character to you now but his flaws will be revealed slowly but surely. Also, Ardon is not just a "backup" or plot device to get to Hikaru's flashback. He's a central part to the story in terms of plot and character development.   

4. Could you clarify this point again? I'm not sure I completely understand. Are you trying to say that my flashbacks were not well-placed or well-executed in the story?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 04:19:34 PM by God Usopp »
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Check out my stories here: http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php?topic=12492.msg213349#msg213349

Offline Lumaria

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 05:18:27 PM »
Thanks for the review Lorenx! I really hope you read Chapter 3, as well, because you will finally see the flaws in Hikaru that you had been asking for  :thumbsup:
Not soon enough. You have to understand. YOu don't control your readers. You write to please the readers, and i'm not saying whatever the reader tells you should be it. But if i have to wait 2 chapters to seee his flaws, i'm not going to stick around. and thats that.

Quote
1. I might do this at the very end when I'm done writing all the chapters for this arc/season. I like adding in the trademark Japanese terms like "Oi"; I don't know...kind of makes me feel like a mangaka :push: but just a little.


Typical, over-the-top Manga fan who believes it has to have Japanese terms in order to feel like a mangaka.

Feel like a mangaka when you get published. Right now just focus on making your story work.  their not "trademark" Japanese terms, their just things Japanese sayings. I was ignoring it up until i heard "Oji-san" when "Gramps" is enough. if you're going to do honorifics, use them when appropriate, or don't use them at all.

Its the story and how its written that's going to matter. Also, like everyone said about inconsistent naming.It feels like a typical maga fan would do. add in japanese names and terms, and not work on having a consistent well-written story.

Quote
2. When I write, there are certain scenes in my mind that I like to focus on or get to quickly. This causes me to neglect some important details and descriptions. I do get what you're saying about it feeling rushed. So I guess what you're saying is that instead of just talking about Hikaru's aura, I should show his aura through the elderly man's thoughts perhaps? Or do you have any other suggestions? Or for the soldiers in reserve, I should have a conversation showing how they're enjoying the offerings instead of just saying that they are, right? I think this is what you're telling me to do...[/quote[ for the most part show it to your readers, not tell. but there was an excess of telling than necessary in that scene when those soldiers were eating. You explained how a conch shell was a sign to let them get food.

Simple things such as a soldier saying "Send in the reserve" would be enough to tell the readers who they are and such.

Quote
3. So it seems I am again painting Hikaru as a flawless character is what you're saying, or rather an uninteresting, bad ass character with many good qualities. I will not deny I tried to portray Hikaru as a bad ass in the first chapter, but not mainly because I wanted readers to like him. I would like readers to like the MC but that was not the main reason. The main reason was to contrast how Hikaru is in the present to how he was in the past, i.e. when he was still a lazy wuss on the farm. When readers see these two polar opposite Hikarus, they would want to know more about what caused Hikaru to get from point A (wussy) to point B (bad ass but with flaws that will be presented later)--or at least that is what I hoped would be the readers' reaction. I know I've already said this before Lorenx lol so I'm sorry to sound like a broken record. Hikaru may seem like some perfect character to you now but his flaws will be revealed slowly but surely. Also, Ardon is not just a "backup" or plot device to get to Hikaru's flashback. He's a central part to the story in terms of plot and character development.
This time i'm adding more...all his traits just don't seem to suggest a realistic character.
Then please don't ask me to review your story over and over.

The problem is that the first chapter showed nothing but good qualities, but WORST. It doesn't portray a consistent character. All the good traits doesn't exactly paint a "REAL" character. He acts like a silent character, he gets anxious to kill, and over all he talks big. None of those qualities connect to each other. You have no idea who Hikaru is at this point in time, and i can tell because i can't see what you want him to be.

Chapter 2, once again shows off another side of a character. NOTHING close to what ARdon was saying in chapter 1.


I don't want to read any further....Hikaru is simply not a realistic character....he has so many traits, but nothing that leads to me to say "he's this type of character" or "i can tell what kind of person he is" because i can't.

You think too flat when it comes to Hikaru (and everyone else)....In your own words, what can you tell me what kind of person is Hikaru is just by reading the first two chapters? Yes, he's a badass in chapter 1. but nothing else....Even certain characters have personalities. In Final Fantasy VII, Cloud Strife was the silent protagonist with very few words.

in chapter 1 he's bad ass, chapter 2 he's lazy, but holds his composure, chapter 3 forced to do work and realizes he's weak. Now, not necessarily a character flaw, he's just physically unable for this time. But then suddenly an angel comes up to make it all better for him.

You paint him too much of a good person...he has no real personality. and for that reason, the flaws just didn't feel like i was understanding Hikaru....he's plain...he has nothing unique about him, he has no "REAL" flaw about him. He just had to transition to something he wasn't used to. Other people make fun of him, which they should, but it doesn't get to him enough.


Chapter 2 his flaw was laziness? it didn't affect him until he wasn't being lazy anymore. He was working....what kind of character do you want me to see? Whether i like him or not, what makes him INTERESTING? WHat makes me want to know what kind of person he is, if everything i'm seeing feels artificial?
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4. Could you clarify this point again? I'm not sure I completely understand. Are you trying to say that my flashbacks were not well-placed or well-executed in the story?
This has to do with how you're organizing your story and it involves multiple chapters. Chapter 1 is organized in a way where it looks like it should continue, you set up a plan for Hikaru and Ardon to infiltrate Bura's ceremony, and it succeeds. I know NOTHING about Hikaru in this chapter, but it looks like you want to highlight who he Used to be and how he got to be this character. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 05:28:16 PM by Lorenx1 »
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline DeAngelus

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 06:36:23 PM »
I got your message . This is a very short in-depth critique from me .

Everything that is wrong with your story now , LorenX had already pointed out . So , I don't even feel like repeating what had been said aside from the way I word it out (Yes , I'm awfully busy . I got a critique pending that needs to be done stacked on top of making a living & focusing on my own stories) .

But other than that , one huge flaw of your story is that there's no introduction . The moment I read chapter 1 i felt like I'm thrown into a big battle scene . I don't even know who is Hikaru , Bura , Ardon or any character intimately , let alone getting to know them formally for the first time .

Also on Hikaru's weakness (not a plural , there's only one "weakness") , it won't do crab at counteracting the plethora of strength he had there . If you want a correct strength-weakness balancing ratio that closely resembles your character , go look up 'Maoyuu Maou Yuusha' , follow a character named 'Hero' & study him ... thoroughly . That character holds your answer .

Also , I stopped at the beginning of chapter 3 simply because I concluded that you don't get the point I've said before :

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There's a local saying in English (literally) 'Like a mouse repairing a pumpkin' . Whenever you fix a major issue in your story , fix it where it's broken on the very spot . Don't make new chapters in hopes that the chapter(s) will help fix the issues the other chapter had - it doesn't work that way . What's broken will remain broken until it's attended to ; for your manga , this flaw will be brought along with every chapter you create , regardless whether the chapter is the 'remedy' chapter . In fact , at times even you try to do so will end up making that flaw even more flawed than before .

Also , get all the essential introductions on the first few chapters before actually developing them . If the angel & demon concept is vital for the story of yours , introduce it's basics first along with the character introduction instead doing them in parts .

To put it simple , most if not all the flaws in your story are all fundamental flaws , something that don't require a long critique other than 'study , research & practice more' .
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 06:38:55 PM by DeAngelus »
PM me if you wanted a critique. It takes time for one to come to you, so please be patient.

If you wanted it to be public or private, do tell me.

Offline MK

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 07:29:05 PM »
I think a better way to write the story is have it in chronological order like the others said (and don't make too many time skips). If you can somehow do it then start off in present time and reveal the past in a flashback

Offline Aozora

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 08:05:50 PM »
@Lorenx1:

Not soon enough. You have to understand. YOu don't control your readers. You write to please the readers, and i'm not saying whatever the reader tells you should be it. But if i have to wait 2 chapters to see his flaws, i'm not going to stick around. and thats that.

Control you? Never. Would I like you to read it so I can improve? Of course. Please try to see the difference. Write to please the readers...how Lorenx? There are so many readers out there. How can I please every single person who reads this story? That is simply not possible. What one may deem as crap, others may deem as masterful...it's just a matter of opinion. Okay, you've made your decision. I understand.

Feel like a mangaka when you get published. Right now just focus on making your story work.  their not "trademark" Japanese terms, their just things Japanese sayings. I was ignoring it up until i heard "Oji-san" when "Gramps" is enough. if you're going to do honorifics, use them when appropriate, or don't use them at all.

Okay I will fix this...but I wonder why it bothers you so much? :hmm: This work is not meant to be a professional, final work that I'm submitting to a contest or anything like that. It's a rough, rough draft for now. Minor things like honorifics/names I can fix at a later time, right? For now can you just somehow ignore them--if you keep reading that is? I can change it but just not seeing the big deal here.

Simple things such as a soldier saying "Send in the reserve" would be enough to tell the readers who they are and such.

I added in the conch shell to add to the atmosphere of the time and period. Conch shells were commonly used back in the day and they will be a part of my fantasy world.

You have no idea who Hikaru is at this point in time, and i can tell because i can't see what you want him to be.

Hikaru is a wandering warrior who has some sort of grudge on demons. That's the main gist of it. Okay so you seem to be misinterpreting some things. Hikaru is a "big talker" or "preacher"? Are you referring to what he says at the end to the family? That wasn't supposed to show that he is a "big talker". That's supposed to show that he is someone who hates weak people; that's why he tells them that fighting back and dying is better than being oppressed. He seems like a hero? I clearly had in the dialogue Hikaru say that he is not a hero and does not care about the villagers; he simply wants to stop demons from doing whatever they want. Hikaru is a silent character? Are you getting that from when Hikaru doesn't say anything after the old man bumps into him? He doesn't say anything so that he doesn't blow his cover and because he doesn't need to. He's a man of few words but not this "silent" character. Look up Guts from Berserk. Present-day Hikaru is modeled after him.

Old Hikaru is supposed to a happy-go-lucky farmer who places lots of value on family, friendship, and relationships. He is forgiving, kind, and generous. However, Hikaru doesn't take life seriously; he thinks it's all fund and games. For that reason, he is lazy and irresponsible which was shown when he told Heian "to take it easy", when he didn't finish Obasan's task, and when he just decided to take a nap without finishing his task. Hikaru is also too dependent on other people. This is shown when Heian asked him what he would do without Obasan and his siblings, and he couldn't find an answer. Hikaru is also a coward. He ran away without bothering to help his guardian who literally protected and raised him for 19 years.

I hope this clears up Hikaru's character for you a bit...

This has to do with how you're organizing your story and it involves multiple chapters. Chapter 1 is organized in a way where it looks like it should continue, you set up a plan for Hikaru and Ardon to infiltrate Bura's ceremony, and it succeeds. I know NOTHING about Hikaru in this chapter, but it looks like you want to highlight who he Used to be and how he got to be this character.

I'll be alternating between present and past time. That way you can learn more about Hikaru in the present.

@DeAngelus:

I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to provide feedback. Indeed your review seems to have many of the same points Lorenx had. I did try to fix my flaws before moving on by making that first chapter to show Hikaru is the main character. But perhaps it was not an adequate fix.

@Matsui Kenshin:

Okay I guess I could start with the present day scene. I felt that it was important for the readers to know that Hikaru is a fallen angel; that's why I included that in there before going to present time. Thanks for your input.


The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Check out my stories here: http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php?topic=12492.msg213349#msg213349

Offline MK

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 08:29:28 PM »
Well the time skips are pretty confusing...  So we start off in 925...  Then it goes back 10 hours... Then it jumps 22 years forward and goes backwards another 3 years...  Then ??? Goes to 100 days after he was banished???

Usually in manga you have only 1 major past that gets focused on...  Like in Bokuwa tomodachi ga sukinai it keeps going back to his childhood friend, Nisekoi with the locket...  But I think yours would fit like Golden time the best, wakes up in the present with no memories and slowly gains them back (not at once but little things that keep you interested to know about it but not spoiling it all at once

Offline Aozora

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2015, 10:04:33 PM »
I think what's making it confusing is all the numbers and years. Because the thing in the beginning with Hikaru being banished is like a prologue. Kind of like in One Piece when the narrator is telling about Gol D. Roger. The story where Hikaru is a farmer is the main flashback. So really there is only 1 major past like you said but all the numbers and years make it seem like there are many. I will try to reduce the confusion behind all that.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Check out my stories here: http://forums.mangaraiders.com/index.php?topic=12492.msg213349#msg213349

Offline Lumaria

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2015, 01:37:06 AM »
Control you? Never. Would I like you to read it so I can improve? Of course. Please try to see the difference. Write to please the readers...how Lorenx? There are so many readers out there. How can I please every single person who reads this story? That is simply not possible. What one may deem as crap, others may deem as masterful...it's just a matter of opinion. Okay, you've made your decision. I understand.


That's where you have to make a decisive decision and find out who are the ones giving the better critique. and who are just here for a ride.

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Okay I will fix this...but I wonder why it bothers you so much? :hmm: This work is not meant to be a professional, final work that I'm submitting to a contest or anything like that. It's a rough, rough draft for now. Minor things like honorifics/names I can fix at a later time, right? For now can you just somehow ignore them--if you keep reading that is? I can change it but just not seeing the big deal here.
I look at every single work. You said you will "fix" it. So if you're not going to fix it, and you're going to leave something "broken", you think i want to stick around to just see broken? Do you think you want your readers, regardless if this is a professional piece of work or a hobby to see "broken"?

But if you still don't get it, it just screams out Manga-fanboy. Those who use honorifics, for the sake of it, and usually those who use it often are usually who use them inaccurately. And trust me when i say that you're  using inaccurately. The overuse of "Name-oniisan"

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I added in the conch shell to add to the atmosphere of the time and period. Conch shells were commonly used back in the day and they will be a part of my fantasy world.

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Hikaru is a wandering warrior who has some sort of grudge on demons. That's the main gist of it.
You imediately lost my interest on this character.

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Okay so you seem to be misinterpreting some things. Hikaru is a "big talker" or "preacher"? Are you referring to what he says at the end to the family? That wasn't supposed to show that he is a "big talker". That's supposed to show that he is someone who hates weak people; that's why he tells them that fighting back and dying is better than being oppressed. He seems like a hero?
Definitely. He's preeching, and he doesn't sound brash. Don't try to twist it any other way. If he said that in a "rude" way. perhaps.

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I clearly had in the dialogue Hikaru say that he is not a hero and does not care about the villagers; he simply wants to stop demons from doing whatever they want. Hikaru is a silent character? Are you getting that from when Hikaru doesn't say anything after the old man bumps into him? He doesn't say anything so that he doesn't blow his cover and because he doesn't need to. He's a man of few words but not this "silent" character. Look up Guts from Berserk. Present-day Hikaru is modeled after him.

This is actually a trait that shows up all the time...."selfless"

Quote
Old Hikaru is supposed to a happy-go-lucky farmer who places lots of value on family, friendship, and relationships. He is forgiving, kind, and generous. However, Hikaru doesn't take life seriously; he thinks it's all fund and games. For that reason, he is lazy and irresponsible which was shown when he told Heian "to take it easy", when he didn't finish Obasan's task, and when he just decided to take a nap without finishing his task. Hikaru is also too dependent on other people. This is shown when Heian asked him what he would do without Obasan and his siblings, and he couldn't find an answer. Hikaru is also a coward. He ran away without bothering to help his guardian who literally protected and raised him for 19 years.
that's not what i get from Hikaru at all, and he ran because he was told to. No matter what you say, you're portraying it completely different.

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I hope this clears up Hikaru's character for you a bit...
Worst of all with Hikaru is that he doesn't have a strong personality that i can udnerstand...even with a time gap, i need to know two consistent personalities to even be interested in some form of transition (DEVELOPMENT).

Hikaru has no distinct personality...over all, i'm not seeing a lot of thought process from him at all. You took far too much time showing him off, even when you think you are painting him with flaws (which you're not). Give him a REAL flaw.....a real HUMAN flaw....not "too good to a fault".....

Quote
I'll be alternating between present and past time. That way you can learn more about Hikaru in the present.

the way you're doing it now...i'm seeing two extremes none of which seem interesting....so i rather not read another shallow character...because he is....Hikaru is a very shallow character. has no depth....has nothing for me to even be interested in knowing whats going to happen. ANd honestly, i suspected this when you made it out as "demons" causing him pain.....now....i get it....they killed his family...but doing it constantly is now overkill....
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline Aozora

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2015, 10:29:01 PM »
@Lorenx:
I treat all critiques equally as long as they were written with the intention of helping me improve. There is no "better critique" in my dictionary. I feel you're trying to imply that your critique is more helpful/better than others and so I must follow it to improve. Sorry Lorenx, I don't see it like that.

I have tried to fix the things you have said, the main one being Hikaru's lack of flaws and unrealistic qualities, but you are unable to see the effort I have made to implement your advice. If you really want to help me, if you really want to see the MC portrayed better, then you would have been more specific in terms of exactly how, what, and where you wanted me to make such changes. Simply pointing out a weakness and constantly putting the work down because of that weakness doesn't help the writer improve at all. It's about providing suggestions on how to erase that weakness--that is the mark of a true critic. 

Inaccurate usage of honorifics makes a story "broken"...whatever you say, buddy.

I'm not trying to twist it Lorenx. What the heck would I gain by twisting my own story? I'm telling you he wasn't supposed to come across as preachy. Accept it or leave it. Or an even better option is tell me what to change so that he doesn't come across as preachy to you; that would help me so much.

So Hikaru is portrayed as "silent", "selfless", or both? What are you trying to say?

Before he ran away, he only thought about how he would die if he stayed. While he was running away, he only thought about wanting to survive. How are you not seeing that I'm trying to show Hikaru is a coward? Do I have to literally say in my story "Hikaru is a coward" for you to understand/believe me? If I'm portraying it differently from what I'm saying, tell me how to change it. I will gladly do it if I feel it is good advice.

What are these inconsistencies in Hikaru's personality you speak of? Again we are at the starting point where you are screaming "give him a flaw" even though you have already said this ten times and I have made an effort to show his flaws yet you are still unsatisfied.

Why do neither of the two extreme personalities seem interesting? Why is Hikaru a shallow character? Why is there nothing for you to be interested in knowing what will happen? Where do you see Hikaru's family constantly dying when it has only happened once??

BOTTOM LINE: While I have made an effort to implement your advice and do my best to show Hikaru's flaws, you are still unsatisfied and push the same points you have already made. However, this is not helping me to improve. If you have suggestions or advice on how exactly I can fix the problems you constantly bring up, I would more than happy to listen and apply those suggestions. But as of right now, I am not gaining from your reviews and you are reading a story you find absolutely horrendous. I am perfectly fine if you do not want to read anymore to save yourself the time and pain from reading my work. Also, I will no longer message you in request of reviews because you clearly found it annoying. Thanks for the input you have provided thus far. I appreciate it very much.

@DeAngelus:
DeAngelus, if you don't mind, I would like to expand on my response from earlier because I feel like I did not properly address the points you made.

I have a feeling that perhaps the intentions and purpose of this story are being misunderstood. You mentioned that you feel like none of the characters in chapter 1 had a proper introduction and that you barely know who they are. Yes, that is what I was trying to do. I don't want you to know who they are but rather learn who they are if that makes sense.

My story is not supposed to be a novel where the main characters are given proper introductions in chapter 1 itself. That's not what I'm trying to do; if that was, I would just stick to making a novel, not a story for a manga/anime. Rather, this chapter is essentially just a big battle scene because that is what would grab people's attention if this was a manga/anime. If you have the time please watch the first episode of this show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIuzmNXOSs. The main character is not given any introduction. He simply walks into a town and kills a demon; that's basically the entire first episode. This is what I was trying to mimic with my first chapter in a sense.

As for the weaknesses, I think it's too soon to say that present-day Hikaru doesn't have any. After all, you barely even know of him as you said. However, the past Hikaru does have a plethora of weaknesses that offset his strengths. I really wish you read Chapter 3; they were considerably more evident in that chapter. 



 
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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2015, 06:24:18 AM »
@Lorenx:
I treat all critiques equally as long as they were written with the intention of helping me improve. There is no "better critique" in my dictionary. I feel you're trying to imply that your critique is more helpful/better than others and so I must follow it to improve. Sorry Lorenx, I don't see it like that.
then you probably don't give all critique any value at all.

If you did give critique value, you would search for the ones that know what their talking about.

Quote
I have tried to fix the things you have said, the main one being Hikaru's lack of flaws and unrealistic qualities, but you are unable to see the effort I have made to implement your advice. If you really want to help me, if you really want to see the MC portrayed better, then you would have been more specific in terms of exactly how, what, and where you wanted me to make such changes. Simply pointing out a weakness and constantly putting the work down because of that weakness doesn't help the writer improve at all. It's about providing suggestions on how to erase that weakness--that is the mark of a true critic.
the only way you can do better...if you changed your approach...

Quote
Inaccurate usage of honorifics makes a story "broken"...whatever you say, buddy.
You're not making your point any better. But yes, inaccurate usage breaks a story. And if it doesn't for you...you don't care about writing a good story.

I have literally saw people over use "-san" thinking it was universal. I saw older and younger siblings use "onii-chan". you think that made no impact on the story? I've seen one character use "gramps" then later using "Oji-san".

So go ahead and use sarcasm to excuse your irrationality to act like a weeaboo. it wont change the situation.

Quote
I'm not trying to twist it Lorenx. What the heck would I gain by twisting my own story? I'm telling you he wasn't supposed to come across as preachy. Accept it or leave it. Or an even better option is tell me what to change so that he doesn't come across as preachy to you; that would help me so much.
i tell you what to do, i'll be writing story.

Quote
So Hikaru is portrayed as "silent", "selfless", or both? What are you trying to say?
Hikaru is a mix bag of traits that don't connect at all.

Quote
Before he ran away, he only thought about how he would die if he stayed. While he was running away, he only thought about wanting to survive. How are you not seeing that I'm trying to show Hikaru is a coward? Do I have to literally say in my story "Hikaru is a coward" for you to understand/believe me? If I'm portraying it differently from what I'm saying, tell me how to change it. I will gladly do it if I feel it is good advice.
Hikaru did a very "NORMAL" thing. Especially when someone else told him to leave. If you want to highlight that gurther, give him a situation where he had the chance to do good, and didn't.

Quote
What are these inconsistencies in Hikaru's personality you speak of? Again we are at the starting point where you are screaming "give him a flaw" even though you have already said this ten times and I have made an effort to show his flaws yet you are still unsatisfied.
no...its more than that, everything i'm seeing in Hikaru doesn't feel real....

I don't know what his personality is....what kind of person "HIkaru" is...all i know is that he's a main character, he wants to kill demons. and of course he does. its all so obvious.

Even though i am asking for a flaw, i'm not asking for "Kryptonite". I'm looking for both good and bad qualities that are able to be seen within a character. I'm asking for a character to have a personality. something that makes him Human enough to be interesting.

Flaws and qualities are normally seen when you already have a personality in mind. And i don't see that with this character.


Quote
Why do neither of the two extreme personalities seem interesting?
because in both extremes, he doesn't have a realistic personality that i can get invested or want to get to know further. There has to be appeal.

Quote
Why is Hikaru a shallow character? Why is there nothing for you to be interested in knowing what will happen? Where do you see Hikaru's family constantly dying when it has only happened once??

He's shallow because again, no personality. in chapter 1, we saw many qualities, but none of those qualities felt "real". Its kind of all like seeing a master of everything.

It also doesn't help that you start off the story already setting up what to expect, so if we didn't like Hikaru for what he was in chapter 1, why would the "flashbacks" of who he was before make it any better?

Quote
BOTTOM LINE: While I have made an effort to implement your advice and do my best to show Hikaru's flaws, you are still unsatisfied and push the same points you have already made. However, this is not helping me to improve. If you have suggestions or advice on how exactly I can fix the problems you constantly bring up, I would more than happy to listen and apply those suggestions. But as of right now, I am not gaining from your reviews and you are reading a story you find absolutely horrendous. I am perfectly fine if you do not want to read anymore to save yourself the time and pain from reading my work. Also, I will no longer message you in request of reviews because you clearly found it annoying. Thanks for the input you have provided thus far. I appreciate it very much.
Here's my suggestion....don't go half-way with the advise. go all the way....

If i'm not budging on my review or elaborating enough, its probably because you're going half-way and i'm still waiting for you to do completely. i dont believe going half-way in anything i say will be beneficial. Chapter 1, 2, and 3 can actually be more summarized together if you worked hard enough to remove what we will find out later, and what we will find out...

So if this is going to be a pattern of me giving general advise, and then taking half of it, and the other half you reject and somehow expect me to work with that to help you further. Then i just rather not going to review.
Quote
@DeAngelus:
DeAngelus, if you don't mind, I would like to expand on my response from earlier because I feel like I did not properly address the points you made.

I have a feeling that perhaps the intentions and purpose of this story are being misunderstood. You mentioned that you feel like none of the characters in chapter 1 had a proper introduction and that you barely know who they are. Yes, that is what I was trying to do. I don't want you to know who they are but rather learn who they are if that makes sense.

My story is not supposed to be a novel where the main characters are given proper introductions in chapter 1 itself. That's not what I'm trying to do; if that was, I would just stick to making a novel, not a story for a manga/anime. Rather, this chapter is essentially just a big battle scene because that is what would grab people's attention if this was a manga/anime. If you have the time please watch the first episode of this show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIuzmNXOSs. The main character is not given any introduction. He simply walks into a town and kills a demon; that's basically the entire first episode. This is what I was trying to mimic with my first chapter in a sense.

As for the weaknesses, I think it's too soon to say that present-day Hikaru doesn't have any. After all, you barely even know of him as you said. However, the past Hikaru does have a plethora of weaknesses that offset his strengths. I really wish you read Chapter 3; they were considerably more evident in that chapter. 

Beserk isn't the best series to take consideration. Its heavily dated, and doesn't really fit the feel of a normal manga. Character development was definitely not the core of the series. Back before manga was mainstream, the common majority were heavy action oriented. And these type of characters were common.

But most importantly, manga and anime aren't 100% the same thing....for example: Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood starts off in the middle of the manga, then goes back to the beginning of where it should've started. And that is mainly because anime isn't measured in pages, its  measured in animation.

What both manga and anime do is give a small preview of the future, then start in the beginning. But you gave a semi-introduction to this "preview".


HERE IS WHAT YOU CAN DO:
Heian is a great character.....he is consistent, and he's not one-sided. he has all the appropriate traits of a main character. because whether one reader hates him, or another person likes him, people know what personality he has...

But not Hikaru....find out the differences between the two. If you think the only difference is "focus" you gave between them, then you probably should give more focus on Hikaru. But i hope you see legitimate differences between the two.

You have to understand that regardless Heian is the main character, he's not the lead character. In every chapter where Hikaru is in, there needs to be some focus on him to shine his personality (whether its good or not). Don't add in fake flaws....add in real qualities that can potentially be flaws.

If Hikaru isn't a hero, than he could've killed innocent humans along the way of killing Demons. That could've been a flaw within him. He wouldn't have cared what happened to humans. But because he does, i know you want him to be a hero....and you're giving him all the heroic qualities.

Find one thing that you believe is the one thing that makes Hikaru is, and forget everything you made Hikaru out. Use that oen thing to expand his personality so that it comes off as natural (not artificial) then work on the story so that he gets to develop naturally.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:33:47 AM by Lorenx1 »
Stop playing victim....you know what you did.

Offline MK

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2015, 07:04:40 AM »
Ok obviously we can tell that you have a huge influence on your manga from One Piece...  You made a great background on Heian but let me explain to you how One Piece did it...  Ok yes they made the prologue with explaining the world is of pirates but then they went into the beginning with Luffy.  It started in present time not a flashback of his past.  Then it went on for a bit with the Navy... Now if i were to relate your manga to One Piece then it would be like starting off with Luffy when he was a kid and Shanks having his arm eaten off...  Heian is like Zorro but you went straight into his background. 

So your manga would sound like: Chapter 1:  Gold Roger being awesome pirate that got One Piece, Shank's arm being eaten with Luffy next to him (we don't quite know why he was in the ocean)...  Chapter 2 interaction with Zorro and Luffy, Zorro's background.

Basically you kind of lost us because we don't know what happened in between chapter 1 and chapter 2 or even why he was in the ocean... How it would be better made (at least how I think)...  State that there was a war between angels and demons (only a couple pages). Go into present time and add something about Hikaru (like that he woke up and doesn't remember anything), then how he meets the family.  Next chapter you put Heian in there. 

Another thing is you need to squish down the amount of time skips...  So you can start off 22 years ago...  Then go to present time and don't skip forward anymore.  If you wanted to show that he was with the family for a long time then try expanding on it with the different experiences. 

The way you wrote the story is jump into action the first chapter then cooled down.  If you take the action route of starting then you need to follow up with more action the next chapter.  (kind of like Bakuman said, after the first chapter many mangas tend to drop pretty far because the hype wasn't followed up with something better).  I know it doesn't sound as cool but taking the slower route is better for this because you build up... Story down > Hikaru > the feelings with Heian > change into action > adventure > ??? (idk how you have it planned but I imagine you want it like this: New place > background on place > introduction of new character > conflict introduced > new character background > main character helps out new one that somehow related to background giving feelings/action of being awesome and helping > new character joins > adventure, etc)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 07:12:31 AM by Matsui Kenshin »

Offline Aozora

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Re: Hikaru Rising Discussion Board
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 03:53:20 PM »
@Lorenx:
then you probably don't give all critique any value at all.

If you did give critique value, you would search for the ones that know what their talking about.


I said that I treat all critiques equally and you reply by saying that then I must not give any of them value at all...Lorenx, if you're going to reply with a mature or sensible comment that's fine, but I don't have time for these lame comebacks.

the only way you can do better...if you changed your approach...

Change my approach? That's the vaguest feedback one could give a writer. If you could elaborate, that would be nice.

You're not making your point any better. But yes, inaccurate usage breaks a story. And if it doesn't for you...you don't care about writing a good story.

I have literally saw people over use "-san" thinking it was universal. I saw older and younger siblings use "onii-chan". you think that made no impact on the story? I've seen one character use "gramps" then later using "Oji-san".

So go ahead and use sarcasm to excuse your irrationality to act like a weeaboo. it wont change the situation. 


I will change it but when I want to. If that's a problem for you, too bad. There are other more important things in the story that I want to worry about.

i tell you what to do, i'll be writing story.

Too late for that! You're already telling me what to do but not telling me how to do it. And I find more and more that I'm trying to write to please you then writing what I feel is right.

Hikaru is a mix bag of traits that don't connect at all.

Explain please with specific examples from the text.

Hikaru did a very "NORMAL" thing. Especially when someone else told him to leave. If you want to highlight that gurther, give him a situation where he had the chance to do good, and didn't.

Thanks, I'll try.

no...its more than that, everything i'm seeing in Hikaru doesn't feel real....

I don't know what his personality is....what kind of person "HIkaru" is...all i know is that he's a main character, he wants to kill demons. and of course he does. its all so obvious.

Even though i am asking for a flaw, i'm not asking for "Kryptonite". I'm looking for both good and bad qualities that are able to be seen within a character. I'm asking for a character to have a personality. something that makes him Human enough to be interesting.

Flaws and qualities are normally seen when you already have a personality in mind. And i don't see that with this character.


So this right here seems to be the main problem with the story, in your mind correct? So I think what you're trying to say is that Hikaru doesn't seem real or human. Okay Lorenx, I think this is simply something I cannot change. I'm really sorry. If you tell me how specifically, I can try but I seriously don't know what else to do because in my mind Hikaru is being portrayed quite clearly although he may not be the most relatable or realistic character. Hikaru is a lower-middle class farmer, who is 19 years in age and has a heavy and overweight build. He loves his family and his pet and is happy with the boring life on the farm. Although to keep himself entertained, he does dream a lot by looking at the sky. Hikaru is a very simple-minded character who exemplifies the platitude "Ignorance is bliss" meaning he does not know anything about the real world and is just happy thinking all of life and the world exists in that one little farm. In other words, he doesn't really know what is evil and darkness or how to handle those things because he's never faced them before. Since he thinks life is just this little farm, he treats life in a very happy-go-lucky kind of way, never really treating his work seriously and also being quite lazy. Of course, he also has physical incapabilities that prevent him from doing lots of tasks but the main problem is his laziness. He is also unable to adapt and grow based from a situation and that is why he is unable to do extra work after Heian leaves. However this simple and happy-go-lucky life he leads is turned completely upside down when his family is suddenly killed by a demon. As a result he leaves the farm and faces the evil and darkness of the world that he is unaccustomed but since he has never seen the outside world or real life before, he does not know how to handle it. He trusts all the wrong people and gets himself in all sorts of bad situations. These dark and scary scenarios eventually turn Hikaru into a cold, ruthless demon killer who wants vengeance and revenge. That is why he appears as a brutal killer with no personality in the first chapter although he does have a personality that will be revealed slowly but surely.

After reading this explanation, I want you to try reading the story to see if my description of Hikaru is being portrayed in the story properly. If you still feel it is not being portrayed properly, then THERE IS NOTHING MORE I CAN DO. It's a done deal. Sorry.

Here's my suggestion....don't go half-way with the advise. go all the way....

If i'm not budging on my review or elaborating enough, its probably because you're going half-way and i'm still waiting for you to do completely. i dont believe going half-way in anything i say will be beneficial. Chapter 1, 2, and 3 can actually be more summarized together if you worked hard enough to remove what we will find out later, and what we will find out...

So if this is going to be a pattern of me giving general advise, and then taking half of it, and the other half you reject and somehow expect me to work with that to help you further. Then i just rather not going to review.


Half-way...full-way..I don't know how you're measuring how much I'm listening to your advice. All I can say is that I tried my best  to implement your advice. Period.

Beserk isn't the best series to take consideration. Its heavily dated, and doesn't really fit the feel of a normal manga. Character development was definitely not the core of the series. Back before manga was mainstream, the common majority were heavy action oriented. And these type of characters were common.

But most importantly, manga and anime aren't 100% the same thing....for example: Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood starts off in the middle of the manga, then goes back to the beginning of where it should've started. And that is mainly because anime isn't measured in pages, its  measured in animation.

What both manga and anime do is give a small preview of the future, then start in the beginning. But you gave a semi-introduction to this "preview".


It is outdated but I thought Berserk was known for character development and that's why people got mad when he killed all of his characters at the end of the anime because it seemed like he developed all those characters for no reason.

That is exactly what i was trying to do: give a small preview of the future and then go back to the beginning, although I've decided that I'll be switching in between the present and the past.

Heian is a great character.....he is consistent, and he's not one-sided. he has all the appropriate traits of a main character. because whether one reader hates him, or another person likes him, people know what personality he has...

But not Hikaru....find out the differences between the two. If you think the only difference is "focus" you gave between them, then you probably should give more focus on Hikaru. But i hope you see legitimate differences between the two.

You have to understand that regardless Heian is the main character, he's not the lead character. In every chapter where Hikaru is in, there needs to be some focus on him to shine his personality (whether its good or not). Don't add in fake flaws....add in real qualities that can potentially be flaws.

If Hikaru isn't a hero, than he could've killed innocent humans along the way of killing Demons. That could've been a flaw within him. He wouldn't have cared what happened to humans. But because he does, i know you want him to be a hero....and you're giving him all the heroic qualities.

Find one thing that you believe is the one thing that makes Hikaru is, and forget everything you made Hikaru out. Use that oen thing to expand his personality so that it comes off as natural (not artificial) then work on the story so that he gets to develop naturally.


I focused equally on Hikaru/Heian's development; no partiality towards either of them was shown. Perhaps maybe you like Heian more than Hikaru and you feel like he should be the MC lol?

Of course, he could've killed humans along the way but how do you expect me to show that already...the story is just getting started. Hikaru seems natural to me. If he seems artificial to you, I'm sorry. I really don't know what to do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Kenshin:
Ok obviously we can tell that you have a huge influence on your manga from One Piece...  You made a great background on Heian but let me explain to you how One Piece did it...  Ok yes they made the prologue with explaining the world is of pirates but then they went into the beginning with Luffy.  It started in present time not a flashback of his past.  Then it went on for a bit with the Navy... Now if i were to relate your manga to One Piece then it would be like starting off with Luffy when he was a kid and Shanks having his arm eaten off...  Heian is like Zorro but you went straight into his background.

Yes, some influence from OP is there but more of the influence for the layout of the first season of chapters comes from Berserk. Even my story starts with present time but only for a short amount where Hikaru is shown killing the demon. Then it goes to the flashback where Hikaru is a farmer. Unfortunately, there's a reason I did Heian's development/background so early in the story. I could PM you about the reason.

Basically you kind of lost us because we don't know what happened in between chapter 1 and chapter 2 or even why he was in the ocean... How it would be better made (at least how I think)...  State that there was a war between angels and demons (only a couple pages). Go into present time and add something about Hikaru (like that he woke up and doesn't remember anything), then how he meets the family.  Next chapter you put Heian in there. 

Another thing is you need to squish down the amount of time skips...  So you can start off 22 years ago...  Then go to present time and don't skip forward anymore.  If you wanted to show that he was with the family for a long time then try expanding on it with the different experiences.


I will cut down on the time skips; it does make it confusing.

Teal - Revealed later
Limegreen - Chapter 1
Pink - Chapter 2-3

So essentially this is the timeline:
1. Angels and demons have war
2. War ended by God
3. Angels and demons separated

4. Demons killing angels on earth
5. Hikaru (angel) is mad, kills demons on earth
6. He is punished and sent to Earth as a baby with no memories

7. Patrona/Obasan takes him in and protects him along with other orphans on a farm
8. Heian leaves the farm
9. Demon kills family on the farm

10.Hikaru leaves farm
11. Becomes a gladiator
12. Meets Ardon

12. Kills Bura
.
.
     Becomes Warrior
.
.
     Becomes a King
.
.
     Becomes an Enlightened One
.
.

Maybe what I'll do is cut out the part with him being banished and put that part in some other place/chapter. Any suggestions on how to make the organization better based on the given timeline?
 
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