Manga Writers => Manga Creations => Discussions => Topic started by: Forlorn Serpent on March 18, 2016, 09:18:50 AM


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Title: Koi and Bito
Post by: Forlorn Serpent on March 18, 2016, 09:18:50 AM
I hope it's okay for a reader to start the discussion thread.

     Coming from a writer's perspective, you need to cut the first scene. It gives the reader information, but it slows the pace down. It comes off as too "cheesy." After the break, first paragraph, you have conflict, which is important. This is where you should introduce Uma and Koi. Have them struggle during the training instead of instantly beating bito.

     I had trouble reading it through. I attempted like five times just to finish it all the way. I don't know if that was  just me or if other people felt the same way.

     I won't talk about editing issues, since you should be able to identify them. I don't think you put that much effort into it. No one does, me included. You can always look up dialogue tags and other stuff like that.

     Overall, I understood what happened, but i didn't care. What i mean by this, i felt no sense of urgency or empathy for the characters yet. This is the shortcoming of only posting two scenes from a chapter. If you had a completed chapter it would help. You don't have to follow this formula for writing but it helps. Exposition through action, action needs urgency. Each line moves the story forward. Don't info dump in the beginning because it bores the reader. Start the novel/mangas as soon as possible. Also start the fictional world story as late as possible. I don't know if you ever heard this about writing. You start late, end early. Follow that for every chapter and overall manga. 

Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Bito916 on March 18, 2016, 08:16:12 PM
Thanks for the feedback, I have noticed there isnt enough to care about the characters but that is also a chapter taken from my story there is much more before and after that scene. Either way I am working on devloping more and having more struggling going on.
Im not sure I understood the start late and end early concept so I'd appriciate if you explain that more:3
Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Forlorn Serpent on March 19, 2016, 04:39:50 AM
My advice might change drastically since i don't have the before or after parts of the chapter but if you are just starting out as a writer or you haven't had any academic background or professional background over this, you will probably suffer from this mistake. Everyone does it at first, and I mean everyone. Until you are famous, you can't drag on the story with a long build up.

Every scene, be it novel, manga, movie, whatever, should start as late as possible and end as early as possible. What that means is that you don't drag the story until something happens or dilute a scene by dragging it on.  Have something happen from the start. People just meeting  and talking is boring. Have them get to know each other while fighting/training. With this method, you get exposition through dialogue that is believable and interesting.
A story starting with a girl catching a dagger immediately catches the reader's attention. Especially, if you're descriptive skills are awesome.

Dumb example but i see it a lot.
Ex. MC wakes up, looks in the mirror and goes to school. Other characters are introduced that are just basically name drops. MC goes on his day and then something happens. That's called a Plot Point. The PP starts the story. But in this example, the reader will get tired before page 20 when something finally happens. Sometimes nothing happens until couple chapters down the road. An editor would tell you cut the beginning chapters.   

I don't know if you have seen Die Hard. It takes twenty minutes for the movie to start. That won't work now. This doesn't include just action genres. Every genre follows this rule now.  If you saw Crazy, Stupid, Love, within the first three minutes, you know their marriage is over (just by looking at their feet), and the reveal that she cheated affects the audience. We care and the movie begins.

Anime examples, Monster musume, girl is in bed next to boy who didn't know she was there. He is nervous. Zoom out, it is a snake girl, wrapping him with her body, squeezing him. Insert sex joke. He survives. We have the attention of the audience. Now you can give some exposition. We didn't start with the man meeting the snake girl, it already happened. We started with the best possible point to explore what the world is like. Sexy girl monsters exist!

Bleach example: anime specifically. We don't see ichigo wake up. We start with Rukia talking. By the way she is the plot point. Next scene, ichigo confront those guys who spilled the vase. We get a fight, and we are introduced that ghosts exist in that world. Boom, audience is interested.

100 years ago, you could start a movie or story slowly. Exposition was really cool back then because it allowed the reader to see author's skill. Today, the audience doesn't care about scenery or character descriptions that are told to us. We want to see it for ourselves. Now, exposition is done through action, which involves the character doing something that moves the plot forward. Especially, if you want to make this into a visual medium.

For the end as early as possible part,  just end the scene when it's over. People don't have to talk about what happened. Just move the story forward. We don't need scenes of people thinking about their options, unless it's really important. 90% of the time it's not.  This rule can be ignored for comedic effect because we expect it to end. In Pineapple Express, the ending is hilarious because they just talk about what happened. "you killed a guy" "i did." Red should be dead because we know he isn't getting any medical help. But it's funny because he is still alive.

I think some people think that ending a scene and starting a new one causes whiplash for readers but it doesn't. We are use to it. We expect it.
Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Bito916 on March 19, 2016, 09:04:18 AM
Wow this is awesome thanks!:3 I did go back and see lots of explanation that might bore the reader, how does starting in the middle of a scene and flashing back play out? Is it overdone at this point?
Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Forlorn Serpent on March 19, 2016, 09:59:54 AM
I was taught to never flashback. The reason why was that it stops the pace of the story. But as you, anime loves flashbacks. If it can be summed up in dialogue, do it. If it can't, flashback. The flashback still needs to move the story forward. Flashbacks should be a reward for a question that the reader wants to know. 

If you watch naruto for example, flashbacks always destroy the pace. except for a few. I would say don't do flashbacks. Just let the action occur in real time which tells the reader exposition.
Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Ennuiwolf on March 19, 2016, 01:24:35 PM
I was taught to never flashback. The reason why was that it stops the pace of the story. But as you, anime loves flashbacks. If it can be summed up in dialogue, do it. If it can't, flashback. The flashback still needs to move the story forward. Flashbacks should be a reward for a question that the reader wants to know. 

If you watch naruto for example, flashbacks always destroy the pace. except for a few. I would say don't do flashbacks. Just let the action occur in real time which tells the reader exposition.

I agree with you there, but I would say that if used correctly, flashbacks are amazing plot points. I never abide by having a story 50% flashback and then nothing the rest, or inserting a flashback when a scene has gotten to a high point. For me, it would be in small bits and pieces, and simply to reveal some "truths" about what's about to come.

For example, if I had a fight scene, I would go through with the fight scene from beginning to end. but then I'd probably start a chapter with a small flashback that probably won't make any sense, but as the reader continues to read, he gets to know not only about the past, but also about the future.

To me, those are the best flashbacks, ones that not only show what happened in the past, but also what is yet to happen.

So my advice is, go for whatever you were doing before. Use flashbacks, but use them sparingly, as they can also ruin the mood, as Forlorn Serpent said.
Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Bito916 on March 19, 2016, 05:35:55 PM
I can see how delicate that balance is, i do have a few flashbacks that reveal past and such but they might be innthe middle of battles haha Ill move them around and keep positing:3 Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Forlorn Serpent on March 19, 2016, 10:46:52 PM
i edited your first chapter. I think you are trying to write a novel in third person limited. With what you gave me, you have the first act of the first chapter done. which means you are a 1/3 done for the first chapter. Yes your first chapter isn't done.  The plot point that i am seeing here is the confrontation between Bito and Kishe discussion. It is abrupt that Bito went from a flower child to a man but that just means he feels strongly about his opinion. During my first read through, i didn't know bito was the boy with the mask.
Follow this formula for your chapters. Ordinary world. Plot point which is always conflict. Fixing the problem. Resolution of the problem. then you move on to the next chapter.

Just so you know, you are doing a fantasy genre. Looks up tropes that go with it if you get stuck in your writing. always helps.

I will admit that this story is sounding too preachy which is okay if that is what you want it to be. Too many people laugh. Bito is read like he is high while in the forest. No one laughs every time they say something. Maybe japanese girls do. (family guy joke)

I don't like Bito. He isn't real, he laughs way too much. He has no faults except that he cried but he got rid of that when he confronted Kische. I want him to learn or at least experience why his way of viewing the world is wrong.

anyways, here's your edited chapter.

Trees groaned and creaked as they stretched towards the sky or retreated back into the earth. The forest fell into a rhythm as the bushes simultaneously sprouted fruit or withered away. Animals jumped out of the vegetation and, once again, watched as their homes were rebuilt. Bito (brief description here) had opened his eyes just in time to see the last tree burst from the ground a few feet away from him. The boy sat up and looked around at the new environment.  This natural order happened every morning; he would go to sleep in the safety of shadows, only to awaken in a new field.
Whole trees bent and stretched. Some even completely altered shape or transformed into different species, bearing fruit when they were not able to before. Bushes shook violently and retreated into the earth or if luck would allow, produced berries. All the while, animals jumped out and watched as their homes were remodeled once again, in particular one patch of trees completely disappear and instead was replaced by abnormally large, growing carrots.
Purple mist fell on to the earth, as if it was sprayed. The green *tuft* (never heard that word before) pushed out of the nourishing dirt, animals approached the small clearing, only to be startled by an unseen force. It was *obvious* (Don’t use obvious because how would we know) that the animals would not starve, they had an abundance of fruits dropping from trees.
Wolves paced around, leaving light trails and seemed to smile at red and black birds as they flew overhead. Purple deer walked alongside the wolves until they were distracted by berries. The wolf walked over to a bottomless, yet narrow, puddle. It lapped water next to the oversized, yellow foxes. A small grey rabbit ran up to the white wolf and twitched its nose at it, the wolf looked back and touched the rabbits nose with its own. The rabbit ran past the wolf and fox into the bushes. She ran until she reached her field of delicious carrots, but stopped short when she saw a boy in a gas mask looking at the trees as they finished groaning.   

The boy studied the animals as they crept back up into the crown of the trees to establish new territories or collect freshly sprung fruit. The air was filled with the smell of sweet nectar from flowers that bypassed both of his mask’s filters. Once the animals settled down, the boy plucked the carrots, yanked fluffy leaves to add to his collection. He noticed that the animals stared at him from the bushes as he picked the food. Whenever he tried to communicate, they just ran away. He felt alone in the patch of food, yet he continued.
Birds flew over his head and swept a breeze, filled with petals and drifting seeds. From a distance, something approaching the masked boy rapidly as he attempted to grab the last carrots. For a second, he felt fear and flinched from the upcoming surprise. The boy turned back to see a petite fluffy rabbit with grey fur sniffing at him. Her ears were short but they stood up in his direction. The boy let out a sigh of relief and reached down plucking another vegetable. 

"Hello," He whispered, “My name is Bito."
The rabbit hopped slightly, but hesitated. Slowly and carefully it reached towards the delicious meal with her nose, then rapidly snatched it and began devouring it.
Bito laughed and gently pet the rabbit.  He scratched behind her ear and admired its beautiful, soft fur. The rabbit quickly finished the meal and began searching around for more. She sniffed and licked Bito's fingers causing him to giggle behind his mask.
 "Here you go." He reached for more carrots, but stopped when he heard a whizzing fly past his head.  He saw nothing. He spotted a few birds overhead and assumed one of them must had been responsible. He finished rounding up the carrots, but was pursued by his furry companion. "Thanks for the company," Bito handed over another carrot to the rabbit. He watched the rabbit happily eat its meal.
Rustles came from bushes directly behind him.  Bito quickly moved his hand, catching something. He bent down in front of the rabbit and he dropped a rock that he had caught. He picked up the rabbit and caressed her, fearing that it could get hurt.  "I know you're in there," he stated emptily, another rock flew towards him, but Bito caught it with one open hand. Unfortunately, his new friend jumped down and ran in the opposite direction.

A slightly shorter person than himself stepped out from the bushes. He held a sling shot, ready to be fired. He ran past Bito and chased the rabbit but stopped before the tree line.

"You let it get away!" The boy pushed Bito back and *growled*(is he an animal?) as he stared at him. He wore a hat that had a torn visor that barely shaded his eyes. His dark green shirt was covered in dirt and leaves from the forest floor.

"Kiche, that’s enough," a girl about the same age the hunter, she also wore a hat, but her visor was well kept and her clothes were impeccable, “You can't blame this boy for being a lousy shot." She walked over and swiftly grabbed the sling shot from the boy and pulled it back, she released and a fruit dropped out of branches up ahead. She dove and caught it as it descended, catching it handed it over to the hungry boy.
"I'm sorry about Kiche, he gets really irritated when he's hungry," she offered a smile and a handshake to Bito," My name is Iris."

"Bito," he muttered shaking the girls hand and turning to look at the direction his fluffy companion had escaped in.

"Was that your pet (Not important but I totally heard a British voice say that)?"
Her blue eyes amazed Bito. They stood out from her pulled back, platinum blonde hair.

"No..." Bito answered.
He stared at Kiche finish eating his large apple.

"If it's not your pet you should have let me kill the damn thing," he grumbled rubbing his stomach, "We can’t live off of fruits and vegetables forever you know?" He turned to look at Iris, as he felt her staring daggers at him, “Besides I need the target practice."
Iris punched his arm and scolded him. She had noticed Bito had begun tearing up. (don’t use balling ever, yes in dialogue) as he listened to the boy.

"He's just being an idiot don't listen to him!" Iris nervously laughed as Kiche rubbed his arm in pain, “But the truth is we haven't had much luck capturing anything to eat. The animals in this forest seem to be protecting each other for some reason, we've come close to killing a few animals, but these lions" she stopped for a minute, recalling a puzzling event," You think they would at least steal our kill, but they protect the animals. The prey run towards their lairs when we chase them, the strangest part is that it doesn't always happen."

"What do you mean?" Bito asked her confused. (Questions are always confused, you don’t need that dialogue tag, add something better)

"This forest does change occasionally, but not consistently, Kiche and I have been wandering around these woods all our lives and only lately has it become so difficult," Iris walked up the a tree and placed her palm on it, "It had appeared there was a certain range where the woods would warp, and where the lions guarded the creatures."

"Those damn things are everywhere now!" Kiche added loudly, “It’s put us on edge, how am I supposed to make sure Iris is ok knowing those damn things are out there?"
Iris began to blush and grabbed Kiche's hand. "It's ok Kiche, you know I can protect myself," she giggled, " but he's right, they've become extremely aggressive and territorial. Besides the small critters there seems to be some kind of thing they're protecting."

This never occurred to Bito. "Do you have any idea what it could be?" 
Hops were barely heard coming closer towards them. He turned to see the rabbit approach the group. She purposely avoided going near Kiche and ran up Bito, balancing on her hind legs as she licked his fingertips.

*who is talking?*
"It seems like a nest of some sorts, birds swarm together every night to a common area, and it’s always the same direction the creatures run towards when we're hunting them,"

Bito held the rabbit in his arms and petted it.
Kiche was staring at it with hungry eyes and Iris was watching Kiche carefully.
"I'll help you guys." Bito stated unexpectedly.

"How are you supposed to help?" Kiche asked arrogantly, rolling his eyes.

"No offense Bito, but we don't really have many options if we can't eat meat," Iris corrected his tone.

"False," Bito blurted out, "You can survive off nuts, berries and other vegetables or fruit."

"There is no way I am going to eat berries, I am not an animal," Kiche growled, his addiction to meat was being threatened causing him to lose his temper.

"I hate to break it to you, but you are an animal," The rabbit hopped down as Bito did not back down from Kiche, meeting his threat.

"He wants to help us," Iris stood between the two boys,” At this point he just needs to stay alive."

Kiche stopped and looked at Iris lovingly, "Ok, I’m sorry Iris," he apologized, holding her hand.

"Come on," Bito and the rabbit stepped away from the two and walked into the bush, Iris and Kiche chased after them quickly
Title: Re: Koi and Bito
Post by: Bito916 on March 20, 2016, 03:00:48 AM
I didnt realize I actually made him laugh as much as I did so thank you, as far as Bito being too optimistic I agree he is a bit too optimistic. I appriciate the honest feed back its hard to hear because you created something but I do want it to be better:3 I'll keep posting this chapter While trying to keep it in mind:3