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Manga & Anime => Manga Talk => Bleach Manga => Topic started by: TBerkich on May 10, 2014, 10:54:33 PM


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Title: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: TBerkich on May 10, 2014, 10:54:33 PM
I loved bleach for a very very long time - But after the final Aizen battle when Ichigo used his final Getsuga Tensho, I thought that's where it should have ended.
 I understand Kubo wanting to keep going, but at least for me, the fullbringers and the current shinigami vs quincy arc really isn't doing it for me.

I know the manga will end after this, but am I the only one who feels this way? Did you guys enjoy the fullbringers and the current war arc? I just feel like even kubo is running out of ideas.

The latest power ups - like with zabimaru's fake name, it's all seeming forced to me.

Do you guys feel the same?
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Nairbons on May 10, 2014, 11:40:55 PM
!!!Controversial Opinion Incoming!!!!

Bleach should have ended the moment it was pitched, and Kubo should have just finished "Zombie Powder," which was a much better comic in the first place.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: TBerkich on May 10, 2014, 11:42:05 PM
LOL I loved the header to that xD
I'm all for some controversy.

I have never read Zombie Powder by him, but I love his style so I think I may check it out. Did it ever get finished?
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Vacant on May 11, 2014, 04:59:57 AM
Well its the curse of the epic shonen series. They can seem to run out of steam and coast for 20-30 chapters at a time before hitting their stride again. Unfortunately for us, that can translate into 4 or 5 months of reading material!  But they're all guilty of it, FT sagged considerably at the peak of it prev. Arc, the grand magic games and Naruto? Well that became such a mess about 50 chapters ago. I would guess the same for one piece,  I don't know having never watched it myself
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: KagePen on May 11, 2014, 05:13:37 AM
I loved bleach for a very very long time - But after the final Aizen battle when Ichigo used his final Getsuga Tensho, I thought that's where it should have ended.
 I understand Kubo wanting to keep going, but at least for me, the fullbringers and the current shinigami vs quincy arc really isn't doing it for me.

I know the manga will end after this, but am I the only one who feels this way? Did you guys enjoy the fullbringers and the current war arc? I just feel like even kubo is running out of ideas.

The latest power ups - like with zabimaru's fake name, it's all seeming forced to me.

Do you guys feel the same?

I personally don't think it should've ended, just rewritten after it was finished. To me bleach is like fine art, though the weekly schedule forced it to trip and fall once in a while. I think kubo could rewrite it and just connect all the important stuff instead of endless filler.

!!!Controversial Opinion Incoming!!!!

Bleach should have ended the moment it was pitched, and Kubo should have just finished "Zombie Powder," which was a much better comic in the first place.

Apparently kubo put too much personal feelings into Zombie Powder and they decided to cancel it because of that. And bleach did end the moment it was pitched, many times, shonen jump refused to run it but kubo kept trying like a hero in a shonen manga and he was triumphant  :P

Well its the curse of the epic shonen series. They can seem to run out of steam and coast for 20-30 chapters at a time before hitting their stride again. Unfortunately for us, that can translate into 4 or 5 months of reading material!  But they're all guilty of it, FT sagged considerably at the peak of it prev. Arc, the grand magic games and Naruto? Well that became such a mess about 50 chapters ago. I would guess the same for one piece,  I don't know having never watched it myself

One Piece is pretty consistent imo, though the war arcs are usually very long they in turn end very well, a good build up :)
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: NO1SY on May 11, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Bleach is the one long-running manga, out of the big 4, which I kinda don't understand why is so popular.

I think the art-work is brilliant, better than the other 3. But plotwise you get sooooooooo much less. I can't begin to explain how many times I've sat to read the new bleach chapter and thought, 3/4 of the way through, "Oh god, in 16 pages they've said about 10 words in total and 9/10 panels are images of sword slashes and speed lines..."

I actually really enjoyed reading the first couple of arcs. But the ideas behind them became very repetitive and the world of Bleach just isn't immersive enough to keep my interest and make me not care that it's just going to be a bunch of shinigami with different sword powers facing off individually against another group of enemies with their own set of powers. I am really into super power plots, but the story has to be more than "Aaaaaand once they finish beating this group up, ANOTHER group comes along to attempt to do the exact same thing..."

I do understand though that fans' love for the manga comes more from the characters than it does the story, but for me I just enjoy Naruto and One Piece and Fairy Tail so much more.

I thought that on beating Aizen it was the perfect time to stop. The only problem is, with so little actual content in all the chapters, I feel so little of the story has been told. If most of the sword slash panels were turned into Gamaran style explanations of the fights that were going on (I know bleach isn't a technique based martial arts manga but i think there is some scope for that) I wouldn't get so bored looking at the pages, I wouldn't mind them showing EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER FIGHT THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL BATTLES, and the story up to now could have been half the chapters in length and I wouldn't be sitting here waiting for it to get on with things. The story now is, i'm sure, meant to elude to the story behind the quincy's and (without spoiling too much) a few of character backgrounds. But I don't feel in the last half a year or however long since this arc started at I have learned all that much. Again the story is very good at showing the characters get stronger, but it seems to forget that there is an underlying plot that has to progress at some point.

And unfortunately, while I'd like to say that it will end after this quincy arc, because of how little plot progression i feel there has actually been, i can see Kubo deciding to do another arc and feeling justified in doing so.

I'm sorry if i sound bitter. I have pretty strong opinions on Bleach because i find it so infuriating to watch a good concept not go anywhere. It also grates on me a little when people's perception of all manga and anime is based on Bleach, with it being so popular.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Vacant on May 11, 2014, 09:04:32 AM
Yeah, this is the final arc of bleach. It was stated at the beginning of the arc on the colour page.  kubo has stated it was the last arc as well.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: NO1SY on May 11, 2014, 09:38:29 AM
Welp I think it's for the best. I just can't say they are ending on a high. Katekyo Hitman Reborn and Shaman King ended at the right time, can't say the same about this. Hopefully it'll put out something decent in the end though.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Vacant on May 11, 2014, 10:43:42 AM
Yeah, although it's not perfect, I'm still interested and enjoy it enough to continue reading it. I think out of the big 4 Bleach is my personal favourite. I think the character development is the best out of it's peer's but that's just me. haha, It always divides opinion the Bleach/naruto/OP/FT debate :P
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: NO1SY on May 11, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
Each to there own :) out of the big 4 it's between Naruto and One Piece for me
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Roshiro Byakko on May 11, 2014, 11:42:06 AM
@Vacant
I agree with everything you said( except for Bleach being better than Naruto) I do believe that Bleach could be better, but it's still interesting enough to contine reading.

@NO1SEY
KHR ruled and was one of the greatest animes I watched! Glad to see it getting recognition. Never watched Shaman King though.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: NO1SY on May 11, 2014, 11:56:19 AM
I watched KHR and then went back and read the whole thing. Read it please, it adds so much and end very well. the shaman king anime is pretty good and fairly similar to the manga but i prefer the manga's ending.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Roshiro Byakko on May 11, 2014, 11:59:41 AM
I'll definitely check out the manga, alot of my friends like it more than the show itself. I've seen t online just never read.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: OmegaRay on May 11, 2014, 02:05:40 PM
It should ended after "ichigo vs no4 (forget his name :/)" fight.
Everything after that was just dumb. Ichigo should of died or just lose his powers there.
And dont get me started about the no.0 crap that kubo did just to prevent zaraki and byakuya fighting Aizen.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: TBerkich on May 11, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
It should ended after "ichigo vs no4 (forget his name :/)" fight.
Everything after that was just dumb. Ichigo should of died or just lose his powers there.
And dont get me started about the no.0 crap that kubo did just to prevent zaraki and byakuya fighting Aizen.
Hmmmm interesting thought. I really thought the aizen battle after the arrancar had to happen - to wrap up the story. Everything after that to me just felt so forced. The story had ended - Kubo seems to just be trying to keep it alive with ichigo regaining his powers randomly and all.

@No1sey I agree - out of the big 4 it's my least favorite. Simply because of how quickly the story could have been summed up, but it was just stretched so long. The fights were very good, but I think otherwise it is lacking a little bit. Don't get me wrong though, I did enjoy the series - Up to a point.

@Vacant Interesting point. I'm just waiting for bleach to hit its stride again for me - and with this being the last arc, I don't see much happening. And when kenpachi cut through space and time i was like.....what

It just seemed to me that after the Aizen battle everything was wrapped up so nicely! Rukia was saved, so was Soul Society, and Ichigo lost his powers! Everything had seemed to come full circle.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on May 14, 2014, 05:51:03 AM
Mostly my issue with Bleach is that he does not pack much into the chapters. Kubo loves big panels, when he could add more dialogue and progress the story further. It's frustrating when you're interested in intricacies of the division, and other side characters, but they're put aside because he simply doesn't have the time to show them.

He originally intended to put that stray shiningami from Hueco Mundo in the manga, but he said he didn't have time. I'm sure Oda or Kishimoto would've been able to do that. They pack a lot of content per chapter. The annoying thing is Kubo's backgrounds aren't even that super detailed or anything <...< well not compared to Oda and Kishimoto
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: NO1SY on May 14, 2014, 06:11:21 AM
That's what I was saying! Couldn't agree more!
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Vacant on May 14, 2014, 06:17:28 AM
It's funny when you think out of the three of them, I'd say Kubo is the most capable Artist. So I believe he is simply unwilling to draw the backgrounds, which is frustrating as some of his art is incredible
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Lumaria on May 14, 2014, 07:04:47 AM
personally, aizen arc was crappy, but it was the perfect place to end the series....

Bleach was at its peak when we finally get to see Ichigo fight Ulquiorra....but the very moment he dies, thats when all the rushing begins. Was there any need to make Yammy 10 to 0?

Then randomly Aizen decides to take his plan, and his real plan was to lock ichigo and friends in hueco mundo, which was a good plan but seemed like it came out of nowhere.

more issues....and gin dying leaving this really really dumb cliff hanger that now involves this current arc.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on May 14, 2014, 07:20:17 AM
Hahaha. And also, what the heck happened to the 'Use(whatever Orihime's power is called >.> i'm ashamed that i forgot its name)  to erase the Hogyouku? Wouldn't that have been interesting to try?'.

Nope, instead we got Aizen evolving into a butterfly.

And Ishida my gosh Ishida. The potential I saw in that character. He's a bad version of Vegeta now. And he only ever defeats canon fodder. Where is his grudge?

I also recall Karin being set up as a hollow repressant person. I expected something from that honestly, but nope. She was pushed away too.

Gaah. So many gripes i'll get a headache
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Lumaria on May 14, 2014, 08:39:34 PM
This chapter really took its time revealing the powers. each one took like 2 pages. Kubo really drags it out.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: NO1SY on May 15, 2014, 05:48:30 AM
Oh my god! I feel like it's one chapter - 5 introductions and no story, one chapter - all the characters fight no story, one chapter - several of the newly introduced characters die no story! Kempachi just freaking came back, beats up 1 guy and then gets taken down by another group, who will inevitably be beaten by some other shinigami... it'll get to the point, as in the previous arc, where the only people left fighting are Ichigo and the last sternritter standing before Juha Bach...

If only I hadn't read 580 chapters of this, I wouldn't bother reading to the end...

Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: WhiteCrow on August 26, 2014, 11:08:13 PM
So I just finished watching the Aizen Arc Conclusion and I think I'm ready to give my general opinion of the Manga as a whole... feel free to disagree.

-I think that Bleach is a Manga that got by largely due to its art and bad-ass looking transformations. Because after going through countless episodes (MANY filler) I just can't understand how the show could have survived based off its fights. I mean, almost EVERY fight followed the same pattern, Good guy and bad guy clash, Bad Guy overmatches good guy until good guy either:

A: Reveals Bankai and its "Secret" ability
B: Gets the convenient power-up needed to defeat said Bad Guy

The dialogue during the battles was pretty much the same as well, a lot of "You have no idea what power is until you've seen my (Insert form here)."

A few things that threw me off (Especially in terms of character power)

.When Ichigo goes to save Rukia, he somehow; in a short amount of time, manages to best Kenpachi and other high-level Soul Reapers along the way. Mind you... these guys have been Soul Reapers for how long? With that in mind... if Kenpachi could easily stand toe to toe with Espada 0... then why would Ichigo struggle with Ulquiorra or any of the other weaker Espada? I guess i'm saying that I never truly understood the power structure of the series.

.To follow that... I would assume as a means of "quickening" the pace... Ichigo goes from struggling to defeat Ulquoirra to a Hyperbolic time chamber moment with his dad, so that he could magically gain the power to hang with Aizen.

Overall, the show was ok. There were just a lot of things that really confused me in terms of power. The story was so-so as well.

I notice that there are many more episodes after the Aizen Arc... is it worth watching them?

Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 06:10:46 AM
Watching filler is no way to survive on an anime. Especially Bleach's filler. That's the Fullbring arc where ichigo recovers his powers, but it doesn't properly conclude the anime since the anime gets cancelled there.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Hanabi on August 27, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
Mostly my issue with Bleach is that he does not pack much into the chapters. Kubo loves big panels, when he could add more dialogue and progress the story further. It's frustrating when you're interested in intricacies of the division, and other side characters, but they're put aside because he simply doesn't have the time to show them.

He originally intended to put that stray shiningami from Hueco Mundo in the manga, but he said he didn't have time. I'm sure Oda or Kishimoto would've been able to do that. They pack a lot of content per chapter. The annoying thing is Kubo's backgrounds aren't even that super detailed or anything <...< well not compared to Oda and Kishimoto

I stopped reading Bleach after "Rukia Saga". His first chapter had so much going on and I was hooked by it. The more I read the bigger the panels got and the more boring the story got(to me). I couldn't get invested in the characters anymore because they got almost no screen time. Instead there were like 5 pages of explosions and some small text in the end.
To me it's like watching the "Freeza Saga" from DBZ all over again. There's only so much grunting and explosions I could take!  :(

I'm surprised people don't get bored if that kind of pace. ^^;
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Lumaria on August 27, 2014, 01:57:50 PM
midway into the series, Kubo decided that he can expand the story of Bleach by adding more. but that's part of the problem, midway all that time to properly organize his thoughts, and he didn't. By the time the aizen arc came up he just half-baked it.

Kubo also had all the time in the world to cover the back stories of these characters, but he leaves it for the anime to cover. which i found really dumb. i believe kubo never had the time to think up backstories, which is why he always ignored them. Which is why when the anime expands on them, they always feel a little off (except for rukia/renji/byakuya backstories. those always seemed legitimate).


Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 03:33:33 PM
And the Captains really did have things going for them. I mean how can Gin be so unexplained this far in the game? His backstory is just a series of hints when it could've honestly been something at least. I don't expect to have been wowed by their backstories, but as it is they are definitely 'missing' from the manga and not 'unexplained'.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: WhiteCrow on August 27, 2014, 09:22:02 PM
Can I just ask for personal opinion here?

-What is it that you believe made Bleach one of the Big 3? I mean again, I liked it... but I wasn't wowed by it.

Naruto wowed me at times

I've yet to see One Piece... people keep telling me to watch it though.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 09:27:58 PM
Because it was awesome before it's flaws weighed it down. Those first 54 episodes were awesome. Shiningami in their flowing kimonos, Rukia, Ichigo and the captains. Bankai man. The fights, Kenpachi, the hollow appearing. That was a strong start like no one's business. It just petered off.

One Piece has wow moments yes, but its start is slow. The art scared me off.

Naruto I never properly got introduced to it, but I think it started pretty well and fast, and strong.

One Piece grew out much better as the years progressed, followed by Naruto. Bleach clearly had some planning problems and lost favour along the way.

And, my personal opinion is that while Bleach has glaring flaws, I'm still a big fan.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Hanabi on August 27, 2014, 09:30:45 PM
Same question here.
I liked the first chapter a lot and I mean a lot. Stuck around till the end of Rukia saga, because it looked like it had potential.
Somewhere along the line everything seemed way to focused on Ichigo and the big pannel thing still annoys me.


Maybe it's the whole "god of death" thing that was just so popular at that time that it kept the story going?
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
It's been done a lot of times actually. Maybe the time was just right for the bleach manga.

I think the potential it has/had is what made it one of the big three. There are so so many suggestions/theories on what direction the story should've/could've taken to become a great manga and/or anime. Lawd knows I've driven myself crazy thinking up alternate ways the story could've been handled and carried.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Lumaria on August 27, 2014, 09:35:35 PM
Because it was awesome before it's flaws weighed it down. Those first 54 episodes were awesome. Shiningami in their flowing kimonos, Rukia, Ichigo and the captains. Bankai man. The fights, Kenpachi, the hollow appearing. That was a strong start like no one's business. It just petered off.

One Piece has wow moments yes, but its start is slow. The art scared me off.

Naruto I never properly got introduced to it, but I think it started pretty well and fast, and strong.

One Piece grew out much better as the years progressed, followed by Naruto. Bleach clearly had some planning problems and lost favour along the way.

And, my personal opinion is that while Bleach has glaring flaws, I'm still a big fan.
i think at this point, Bleach's original concept was too well designed and too focused on a central theme (shinto religion and japan) that it was hard not to be a fan of. and even the arrancar arc was amazing. but the moemnt ulquiorra dies, and thats where the entire story gets rushed.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: WhiteCrow on August 27, 2014, 09:39:34 PM
That is something that I agree with Lorenx on.

As soon as Ulquiorra died EVERYTHING just went 2000 mph... suddenly the big brute that Ulquiorra had to PROTECT is revealed to be Espada 0... lame. And as I stated before, Ichigo went from unknowingly hollowfying to defeat Ulquiorra, to suddenly learning his ultimate form in a matter of like 3 hours.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 09:44:22 PM
Yes, definitely.

I suspect Ichigo works best when the world doesn't revolve around him. It'd be a nice and reasonable thing if defeating Ulquiorra was his job and that's it, he's tired for the rest of the battle. I mean there is no justifying Aizen spanking every enemy out there, and then just because Ichigo is the MC having him be defeated by him.

Ugh, frustration headache from Bleach returning again

Ichigo's hollowification was brilliant though. It was a cheat and he lost that fight, but it was cool to see.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Hanabi on August 27, 2014, 09:45:14 PM
I had to check out of curiosity, but thought it might have been riding on Death Notes success.
Turns out Bleach came out 2001 and Death Note in 2003. Witch might have given him enough boost to get sloppy after Death Notes success(shinigami theme).

It's like, he didn't have to try. He'd make bank no matter what.

But that's just my conspiracy theory :D

What year was it when Ulquiorra died? I mean when was the chapter published?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 09:50:39 PM
The volume was released October 2, 2009

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/HEART

Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Hanabi on August 27, 2014, 10:06:14 PM
Hmmm.. Death Note ended in 2006.

Maybe he got bored? Tho I'm surprised his editors didn't tell him to actually work on the story more.
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 10:18:01 PM
His editors let him use that Izanagi gimmick was impressive negligence as well >.>
Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: Lumaria on August 27, 2014, 10:32:26 PM
Yes, definitely.

I suspect Ichigo works best when the world doesn't revolve around him. It'd be a nice and reasonable thing if defeating Ulquiorra was his job and that's it, he's tired for the rest of the battle. I mean there is no justifying Aizen spanking every enemy out there, and then just because Ichigo is the MC having him be defeated by him.

Ugh, frustration headache from Bleach returning again

Ichigo's hollowification was brilliant though. It was a cheat and he lost that fight, but it was cool to see.
Mastering hollowfication was great, and it looked like a second stage to hollowfication was being hinted. but we dont see it.

Title: Re: Where Bleach should have ended?
Post by: legomaestro on August 27, 2014, 11:24:48 PM
Yeah a great shame really. He just got absorbed in that training world or whatever...